Feedback on Quotes - Phoenix AZ

[fd3s1994]

I'm starting to get quotes back from various vendors and here are the first three. Please let me know your feedback on both technology & price. I should have a few more coming back next week.

Thanks!

Configuration 1
24 x SolarWorld SW275 mono (with SolarEdge Optimizers & Inverters)
6.6kW DC
Before Rebates: $23,100 ($3.5 per watt DC)
After Rebates: $15,170 ($2.3 per watt DC)

Configuration 2
28 x ET ET-P660260WBAC (ACPV)
7.28kW DC
Before Rebates: $28,613 ($3.93 per watt DC)
After Rebates: $19,029 ($2.61 per watt DC)

Configuration 3
28 x Mage 250/6 PL US (ACPV)
7kW DC
Before Rebates: $27,520 ($3.93 per watt DC)
After Rebates: $17,764 ($2.54 per watt DC)

[+3 Golfer]

The quotes seem high. In April, 2013 I paid $3.00 / Watt installed less $0.40 / Watt for SRP Incentive (first 5 kW only), less 30% FIT credit, less $1000 AZ IT credit (capped at 20% of cost) plus income taxes on the SRP incentive payment. My OPC for a 4940 W system was $1.57 / Watt. Larger systems were slightly less than the $3.00 / W. But the net cost for larger systems was slightly more per Watt because the SRP incentive stopped at 5 kW.

I doubt PV solar costs went up 17% in one year in Phoenix using your $3.50 quote from my cost. I'd keep shopping. My neighbor got quotes in the last month as high as $3.80 / W for a 10kW system. But eventually went with my installer. I don't know the exact numbers but I believe it is closer to $3 than $3.50.

[fd3s1994]

Can you tell me what component were included in the system? I also received another quote for low end panels for $1.79 per watt (net) and $2.77 per watt (gross).

Thanks.

[prhamilton]

Agreed, a bit high. I got 28 ET Panels $3.60/W in California with a string powerone inverter. Also not sure if it matters but I prefer the the black/black panels. The ET panels in your quote are black with white grids.

Do you need micro inverters?

[fd3s1994]

Technically, I don't absolutely need the microinverters, however, I would like that panel level visibility. I haven't seen anything that would provide that detailed level view without going to microinverters (or optimizers).

Thanks.

[prhamilton]

I think panel level monitoring would interesting. I'd get them to quote a string inverter too. My guess is that you will save 0.50/W with a string inverter. Then you can decide if it's worth, I've heard from some people that they check them all the time for the first month and then novelty wears off.

[+3 Golfer]

I didn't realize the panels included microinverters. That likely explains the price difference as I have a dual mppt string inverter. I never got quotes for a microinverter system, but if IIRC a few bidders indicated around 15% more at that time.

So, for a true comparison of cost one needs to include the energy difference from a string inverter system vs microinverters system and factor that into the overall cash flow and payback picture. So, a $3.50 / W microinverter system may be a better deal than $3.00 / W string inverter system. I do like the idea of monitoring individual panel performance.

I did say this in another thread and that is I will likely not be in my home for a long period of time (if history is a predictor of the future) and thus do my analysis for shorter periods of time (5-10 years). Thus, lower capital cost and a smaller rather than larger system compared to my total load gives the best potential return. In the two homes I added PV solar, I sized the systems to offset about 100% of my on-peak load. This generally gives the best bang for the buck in the shorter term. My first 3.36kW system had a simple payback of just over 4 years (APS). My current system has a simple payback of about 7+ years (primarily due to SRP's less attractive net metering and buyback rates compared to APS).

[Volusiano]

If you're in Phoenix, you should be able to get around $2.50/DC Watt before any kind of incentives using string inverters.

If you're in Phoenix and you don't really need microinverters, why are you going with microinverters? Beside the added cost, you'll have a big issue with having multi points of failure sitting up on your VERY hot roof (in Phoenix), getting baked day in day out. Why? Just so that you can get panel level visibility? Panel level visibility is over rated. It's only a nice to have, but I wouldn't have it if it means I must put microinverters on the hot roof risking premature failure.

Enphase has stopped providing labor warranty for their microinverters already, do you know that?

SolarEdge still provides labor warranty, and at least only their optimizers are on the roof, their string inverter is still on the ground. But still, if I have no shading issue, I'd stick to just the simple string inverters. Even if there's full parts and labor warranty from SolarEdge, I'm not inclined to keep making warranty claims all the times should they start failing a few years down the road. That's because it's not just 1 single failure like with a string inverter. It's dozens of potential failure, one on each optimizer circuit per panel you have, failing at different times.

Brand name solar panels are already very reliable, so going through all the extra cost and risks just to have panel level visibility is overkill in my opinion. Overall system level visibility is good enough. After the first couple of weeks, you'll be tired of poring through your panel or even system performance every day. Then it's maybe once a week, then every other week, then monthly, and so on... Heck, initially I decided to get a monitoring system but it didn't work out because my newly introduced inverter wasn't compatible with the box, so my installer took it back. Now 6 months later, my inverter is compatible with the monitoring system now, but I don't feel the need to monitor anything daily anymore. Just a monthly statement from SRP showing my system's production for that month is good enough for me.

[+3 Golfer]

If you're in Phoenix, you should be able to get around $2.50/DC Watt before any kind of incentives using string inverters.

... Heck, initially I decided to get a monitoring system but it didn't work out because my newly introduced inverter wasn't compatible with the box, so my installer took it back. Now 6 months later, my inverter is compatible with the monitoring system now, but I don't feel the need to monitor anything daily anymore. Just a monthly statement from SRP showing my system's production for that month is good enough for me.

Do you know that SRP now provides each day, hourly generation and net energy delivered online the next day. You can download the data. The only issue is one cannot get hourly usage when one is generating as SRP states "due to a physical limitation of the meter, hourly data is only reported to SRP as a net energy value." There's really no need for monitoring output anymore unless one wants to see the different string data or real time data.

Next time I see my new neighbor from CA (lives a couple of streets over), I'll see what his cost was. I also know he was getting about 1/2 dozen quotes. He signed with Sun Valley Solar for a 9.X kW system and his first 2 quotes were well above $2.50. I know he mentioned $38k for about a 10k system. Maybe it was a microinverter solution. I gave a few more names.

hourly.JPGUse.JPG

[Volusiano]

Do you know that SRP now provides each day, hourly generation and net energy delivered online the next day. You can download the data. The only issue is one cannot get hourly usage when one is generating as SRP states "due to a physical limitation of the meter, hourly data is only reported to SRP as a net energy value." There's really no need for monitoring output anymore unless one wants to see the different string data or real time data.

Next time I see my new neighbor from CA (lives a couple of streets over), I'll see what his cost was. I also know he was getting about 1/2 dozen quotes. He signed with Sun Valley Solar for a 9.X kW system and his first 2 quotes were well above $2.50. I know he mentioned $38k for about a 10k system. Maybe it was a microinverter solution. I gave a few more names.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4151[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4152[/ATTACH]

Yes, thanks for pointing out the SRP page which I forgot to mention. I'm aware of it and I've actually been using it to collect data for my monthly production chart. It is an excellent FREE source of data that's not too shabby compared to actual monitoring tools that would give you the same data for the whole system.

I used to look at it on a daily basis, but then it tapered off to weekly, then every other week, and so on, until now I don't bother reviewing it until the end of the billing cycle to collect data for my monthly production chart on a spreadsheet. But if you look at the daily (not hourly) net energy chart, it does give you the correct net value including the negative net as well.

I also want to point out that the hourly net energy chart as shown above (blue and red bars) is actually not complete because it only shows positive net energy when you under-produce, but not negative net energy on the hour when you over produce.

[+3 Golfer]

Yes, thanks for pointing out the SRP page which I forgot to mention. I'm aware of it and I've actually been using it to collect data for my monthly production chart. It is an excellent FREE source of data that's not too shabby compared to actual monitoring tools that would give you the same data for the whole system.

I used to look at it on a daily basis, but then it tapered off to weekly, then every other week, and so on, until now I don't bother reviewing it until the end of the billing cycle to collect data for my monthly production chart on a spreadsheet. But if you look at the daily (not hourly) net energy chart, it does give you the correct net value including the negative net as well.

I also want to point out that the hourly net energy chart as shown above (blue and red bars) is actually not complete because it only shows positive net energy when you under-produce, but not negative net energy on the hour when you over produce.

I do basicly the same down to pretty much just getting the monthly data for my spreadsheets. I've lived with PV systems for 5 years and the novelty of daily monitoring and analyses wears off quickly over time. I wouldn't pay very much extra for monitoring equipment. I have an Aurora Power-One inverter and use the Aurora Communicator software on a PC for inverter data which I look at occasionally for curiosity sake mostly - especially like the next 3 days with the cooler temps, wind, and clear skies - I might set a daily production record.

[ButchDeal]

I do basicly the same down to pretty much just getting the monthly data for my spreadsheets. I've lived with PV systems for 5 years and the novelty of daily monitoring and analyses wears off quickly over time. I wouldn't pay very much extra for monitoring equipment. I have an Aurora Power-One inverter and use the Aurora Communicator software on a PC for inverter data which I look at occasionally for curiosity sake mostly - especially like the next 3 days with the cooler temps, wind, and clear skies - I might set a daily production record.

you might also look into using pvoutput.org which is a free service. My data is sent to pvoutput.org with a TED5000 and two MTUs, though some inverters can send direct.

http://www.pvoutput.org/help.html#overview

[+3 Golfer]

you might also look into using pvoutput.org which is a free service. My data is sent to pvoutput.org with a TED5000 and two MTUs, though some inverters can send direct.
http://www.pvoutput.org/help.html#overview

I have looked at it. Bottom line: I sent data to the Sunny Portal for over 3 years on my 1st PV system - I found very little value in so doing.

[Ian S]

Do you know that SRP now provides each day, hourly generation and net energy delivered online the next day. You can download the data. The only issue is one cannot get hourly usage when one is generating as SRP states "due to a physical limitation of the meter, hourly data is only reported to SRP as a net energy value." There's really no need for monitoring output anymore unless one wants to see the different string data or real time data.

Unfortunately, APS doesn't provide that much info. Nothing by the hour (except demand power) and only net usage. It's nearly two years and I still look at my Sunpower data. Also download it regularly as I want details in case I ever want to look back in the future. But then I'm retired.

[+3 Golfer]

Unfortunately, APS doesn't provide that much info. Nothing by the hour (except demand power) and only net usage. It's nearly two years and I still look at my Sunpower data. Also download it regularly as I want details in case I ever want to look back in the future. But then I'm retired.

LOL, yep I retired early at 56 and been living the "dream" for nearly 11 years now. What's funny is that about one year ago I cleaned up my computer files and deleted the folder that contained the data from my previous PV system (APS service area) - eg, the panel cleaning data comparisons.

You may not have as much data from APS as SRP provides but at least you have a significantly better net metering tariff. I'd trade more data any day for APS's net metering tariff. I think the solar industry won the latest round with APS and the Commission. But eventually, I think net metering has to change (even for the currently grandfathered APS solar customers). If SRP had the same net metering as APS, my savings from PV would increase by about 10%. Of course full disclosure requires that I'm likely saving a good portion of that 10% by the lower SRP rates.