Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

[J.P.M.]

Ok so here come the big dogs! I finally got a quote on SunPower panels and inverter, which everyone seems to agree are the best in the industry. They actually quoted me on the largest system yet, 11.2kW, to cover 100% of yearly electricity. I'm waiting to receive the month-by-month production number so I can plug them in and see if it's worth going with a system that big.

11.2kW system producing 21,300 kWh per year
35 x SunPower SPR-320NW-WHT-D 320W panels
1 x SunPower SPR-11401f-i UNI inverter
$43,904 pre-tax credits ($3.92/watt) - $29,732.80 after tax credits ($2.65/watt)

You do get a better "bang for your buck" on these more expensive systems because you get a lot more back tax credit wise. So for example a $44,000 system will end up being $30,000 net, while a $31,000 system would be $21,000 net...so you get $14,000 for $9,000 basically.

One thing I've learned, which I wasn't told of until today, is that these 2.99% financing deals seem to only be available on the higher priced panels (SunPower, SunEdison). The lower priced (Canadian Solar, Hanwha) have a rate of 7.99% so you're getting a lot less for your money, combined with less tax credit, doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense.

The best by what and by who's criteria ? Most bang for your buck? No way. One more time: Equally (electrical) sized systems in the same location and orientation and service will produce nearly identical yearly output when new and probably for some years into the future. A 10kW system with Canadian Solar, Kyocera, LG, etc. or just about any reputable panel installed by a good vendor will have about the same initial output as Sunpower - where you are with a decent orientation and no shading probably something like 18,000 kWhrs./yr. for ANY of them for a 10 kW system. Lots of public information will confirm this. Sunpower does the same as the others but does so with a smaller footprint - that's where the "most efficient" claim comes from - and a whole lot more money. You need look no farther than the quotes you've got. If you are cramped for space, a case MAY be made for S.P. area efficiency. Otherwise, your wasting roof space and spending money that need not be spent. Sunpower's warranty MAY be better. The necessity of that advantage is yet to be demonstrated. S.P. is great stuff. So is a Mercedes - which hauls groceries no better than a ford. Solar panels are an appliance - not a lifestyle. S.P. gets you good equipment, but performance is no better than other good equipment. For the price premium you get bragging rights and a slimmer wallet. Pay your money, take your choice.

As for tax credit - the fed. tax credit is 30% regardless of size, or manufacturer so you definitely do not get more bang for your buck w/ the fed. Note your examples are both about 32% credit. I'm unfamiliar w/any AZ rebates credits. Perhaps AZ posters can fill in the blanks on that info. As for finance charges, you're not getting less solar for your money, you're paying a higher price for the use of the money you are borrowing. I know that sounds like playing with words, but 7.99% on less financed is still better than 2.99% on a lot more money for the same end performance. Do your homework, crunch some $$ #'s and look at the whole package. You're financing and spending dollars, not percentages.

[J.P.M.]

Because no reasonably sane person wants to live in this heckhole!

Ian: You've been talking to my wife !

[Ian S]

As for tax credit - the fed. tax credit is 30% regardless of size, or manufacturer so you definitely do not get more bang for your buck w/ the fed. Note your examples are both about 32% credit. I'm unfamiliar w/any AZ rebates credits. Perhaps AZ posters can fill in the blanks on that info.

Arizona has a state tax credit of $1000 for solar IIRC.

[Mike90250]

Our heat is actually on gas. The crazy thing is that even the in winter, our A/C runs. We set it at 77º and if it turns on, it turns on...and sometimes it does. Our house is 2,900 sq ft and now we added a pool too so the usage is going to be even bigger. It's a variable speed pump though so that is supposed to help.

AC units are supposed to run at least 1x a week, for a short period to keep the seals lubed and from drying out and leaking. So half hour weekly should cover that. Some thermostats have a small analog computer that anticipates thermal trends, and can start the system early to prevent overshoot.

[HX_Guy]

The best by what and by who's criteria ? Most bang for your buck? No way. One more time: Equally (electrical) sized systems in the same location and orientation and service will produce nearly identical yearly output when new and probably for some years into the future. A 10kW system with Canadian Solar, Kyocera, LG, etc. or just about any reputable panel installed by a good vendor will have about the same initial output as Sunpower - where you are with a decent orientation and no shading probably something like 18,000 kWhrs./yr. for ANY of them for a 10 kW system. Lots of public information will confirm this. Sunpower does the same as the others but does so with a smaller footprint - that's where the "most efficient" claim comes from - and a whole lot more money. You need look no farther than the quotes you've got. If you are cramped for space, a case MAY be made for S.P. area efficiency. Otherwise, your wasting roof space and spending money that need not be spent. Sunpower's warranty MAY be better. The necessity of that advantage is yet to be demonstrated. S.P. is great stuff. So is a Mercedes - which hauls groceries no better than a ford. Solar panels are an appliance - not a lifestyle. S.P. gets you good equipment, but performance is no better than other good equipment. For the price premium you get bragging rights and a slimmer wallet. Pay your money, take your choice.

As for tax credit - the fed. tax credit is 30% regardless of size, or manufacturer so you definitely do not get more bang for your buck w/ the fed. Note your examples are both about 32% credit. I'm unfamiliar w/any AZ rebates credits. Perhaps AZ posters can fill in the blanks on that info. As for finance charges, you're not getting less solar for your money, you're paying a higher price for the use of the money you are borrowing. I know that sounds like playing with words, but 7.99% on less financed is still better than 2.99% on a lot more money for the same end performance. Do your homework, crunch some $$ #'s and look at the whole package. You're financing and spending dollars, not percentages.

Thanks for the lengthy reply JPM. What I meant about the 30% being a "better bang for your buck"...or maybe I should have said your dollar goes further was this...

Say you buy a $43,000 system, you get back $13,900 ($12,900 fed & $1000 state), so your net is $29,100.
If you compare that to a $31,000 system, you get back $10,300 ($9,300 feb & $1,000 state), so your net is $20,700.
You're paying a net difference of $8,400 but your system was actually $12,000 more expensive.

Now on the other stuff about SunPower vs others, maybe the company I'm talking to is really pushing SunPower but according to the proposals I received, they are claiming that a 11.2kW system will produce the same power as a 12.24kW Canadian Solar setup. Are you saying that shouldn't be the case and they should produce the same amount of power? Because the Canadian Solar is less expensive at 12.24kW and would be even less expensive at 11.2kW.

On another note, he also told me about the SunPower 240 AC panels with micro-inverters. The price is within $350 of the 320 DC panels but apparently the 25 year warranty covers everything, so no need to worry about replacing an inverter after 10+ years after the warranty runs out. What is your though on that?

Finally, he said he could do a SunEdison system for $3.50/watt, so about a $4700 price difference between the SunPower and SunEdison. I had one company tell me that SunEdison and SunPower are basically the same in efficiency, reliability, etc...basically equally good. Any input on that?

[JohnInSoCal]

Sounds possible that the house is overheating perhaps due to solar gain and/or a warm winter day, and not much or poor use of thermal mass to prevent overheating. Does A/C come on mid-late afternoon ? If so, that may be the cause.

Interesting, I have the same issue. In winter time here in socal we may have big fluctuations in outside temp where it may get into 70's during day but then cool at night down to 50 or even lower. Still what happens in my house is the second floor gets hot at night while it's cold outside. And the attic temp is cool (I have a remote thermometer). If I cool it down either by AC or by opening a window and whole house fan it will cool temporarily but after I shut the window or turn off AC after a while the second floor is hot again. I don't understand where the heat is coming from. Haven't heard this term "thermal mass" before, i'll have to look that up and see what that means. My house is a stucco house as I suspect the AZ house is as well.

[HX_Guy]

Jon, same exact issue here. I always find myself wondering how in the world is it hotter inside the house than outside if I cool the inside but then after shutting off the A/C, the temp in the house starts to increase even though the outside temp is lower.

[ButchDeal]

Say you buy a $43,000 system, you get back $13,900 ($12,900 fed & $1000 state), so your net is $29,100.
If you compare that to a $31,000 system, you get back $10,300 ($9,300 feb & $1,000 state), so your net is $20,700.
You're paying a net difference of $8,400 but your system was actually $12,000 more expensive.

sounds like the old: spend more to save more ploy.

Now on the other stuff about SunPower vs others, maybe the company I'm talking to is really pushing SunPower but according to the proposals I received, they are claiming that a 11.2kW system will produce the same power as a 12.24kW Canadian Solar setup. Are you saying that shouldn't be the case and they should produce the same amount of power? Because the Canadian Solar is less expensive at 12.24kW and would be even less expensive at 11.2kW.

He is full of it. An 11.2kW SunPower system will perform the same as an 11.2kW Canadian Solar system, it will just be smaller on the roof.

[HX_Guy]

Well that makes a pretty big difference as the Canadian Solar 11.2kW system is $24,001 net cost vs the Sun Power 11.2kW which is $29,732 net.

[alienwulf]

Well that makes a pretty big difference as the Canadian Solar 11.2kW system is $24,001 net cost vs the Sun Power 11.2kW which is $29,732 net.

If you want a 25 year warranty it will cost more any item with better coverage and build will. The smaller size helps on a lot of roofs that have limited space. As far as will the warranty and service be around is yet to be seen. You can say that about any product made cars, Home builders anything. I wanted the warranty and got the extended 20 year on the inverter. All anyone can due is research and try to get the best product, installer, warranty for the best price. Everyones comfort zone is different.

[ButchDeal]

If you want a 25 year warranty it will cost more any item with better coverage and build will. The smaller size helps on a lot of roofs that have limited space. As far as will the warranty and service be around is yet to be seen. You can say that about any product made cars, Home builders anything. I wanted the warranty and got the extended 20 year on the inverter. All anyone can due is research and try to get the best product, installer, warranty for the best price. Everyones comfort zone is different.

your milage may vary but I almost never get an extended warranty. The terms are usually crappy and the price of the products covered usually goes down over time, meaning replacement costs is often cheaper than repairs.
Put the money you would have put into said extended warranty for your :

• car
• cell phone
• TV
• Fridge
• Computer
• Stove
• microwave
• washer / Drier
• inverter
• etc etc

all into a savings account.
YMMV

[russ]

The terms are usually crappy and the price of the products covered usually goes down over time, meaning replacement costs is often cheaper than repairs.

Totally agreed-

[Ian S]

See comments in bold:

Now on the other stuff about SunPower vs others, maybe the company I'm talking to is really pushing SunPower but according to the proposals I received, they are claiming that a 11.2kW system will produce the same power as a 12.24kW Canadian Solar setup. Are you saying that shouldn't be the case and they should produce the same amount of power? Because the Canadian Solar is less expensive at 12.24kW and would be even less expensive at 11.2kW.
Out of the box, SunPower and others of the same nameplate wattage will produce pretty much the same power. What the salesman is probably referring to is that SunPower claims a lower degradation rate over time such that by the end of lifetime say 30 years, the Sunpower system will have produced significantly more kWh than others.

On another note, he also told me about the SunPower 240 AC panels with micro-inverters. The price is within $350 of the 320 DC panels but apparently the 25 year warranty covers everything, so no need to worry about replacing an inverter after 10+ years after the warranty runs out. What is your though on that?
With micro inverters, make sure the warranty covers labor to replace them otherwise it could get costly. At this point in time, I think string inverters are a more known quantity but if you have shade issues, micros may be the way to go.

Finally, he said he could do a SunEdison system for $3.50/watt, so about a $4700 price difference between the SunPower and SunEdison. I had one company tell me that SunEdison and SunPower are basically the same in efficiency, reliability, etc...basically equally good. Any input on that?
I don't think anyone has caught up to Sunpower as far as efficiency is concerned and possibility degradation rate. They are recognized as top of the heap. Bear in mind though that efficiency really only comes into play if you are strapped for roof space, otherwise it's not that big a deal. Indeed, if the lower degradation rate is true, then that's really more significant a factor IMHO. Conventional wisdom is if you are leasing, you go for cheapest out of pocket but if you're buying, it could make sense to pay more for the best. How much you are willing to pay for that only you can determine and as you've found, financing costs may vary with the cost of the system making comparisons even more tricky.

[alienwulf]

your milage may vary but I almost never get an extended warranty. The terms are usually crappy and the price of the products covered usually goes down over time, meaning replacement costs is often cheaper than repairs.
Put the money you would have put into said extended warranty for your :

• car
• cell phone
• TV
• Fridge
• Computer
• Stove
• microwave
• washer / Drier
• inverter
• etc etc

all into a savings account.
YMMV

I should of worded it a little better the extended warranty was paid by the installer system was sold as a 25 year warranty on the panels and 20 on the inverter so was part of the price paid I am sure. I agree for the most part on the buying of extended warranties. I did receive a 3200.00 notebook for the price of a 600.00 full coverage after I had it 3 years and it fried. But for most things I just replace.

[HX_Guy]

See comments in bold:

Ian, I got some clarification on the 11.2 SunPower vs the 12.24 Canadian Solar.

With the SunPower, they are figuring that they can fit all the panels on the south facing slopes while with the Canadian Solar, and needing quite a few more panels, some of them would have to go on the east facing slope. Because of that, they are saying that they would need 12.24kW of Canadian Solar panels to produce the same power as 11.2kW from the south facing SunPower panels. Does that make sense or are they feeding me some BS?

There's also another kink in the quote...the SunPower panels are E19 panels which I guess are discontinued, and also don't include internet monitoring, it would require a separate kit...is that right? Newer E20 panels, which would cost more, apparently include the internet monitoring?