getting Solar evaluated...need some guidance

[jlatenight]

The guy told me our house was probably the only house on the street that qualifies for solar. I'm at the end of a cul-de-sac and my roof in the front points south with no gables, etc. whereas all the others aren't that same orientation. Was he just blowing smoke, or is that possible? I can't seem to get past the saley pitch and "wow, your house is PERFECT". Am I right to be so skeptical? Can't help but feel like I'm being taken for a ride.

I saw this somewhere: "A PV system adds significant increase in property value. As a general rule, every $1 saved in electricity costs / year translates to an increase of $20 in the property’s value." That can't be, can it??

Also, I found this sitexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxthat seems to shoot some pretty significant holes in the solar lease. Are all of these (or any) true?

[Volusiano]

The guy told me our house was probably the only house on the street that qualifies for solar. I'm at the end of a cul-de-sac and my roof in the front points south with no gables, etc. whereas all the others aren't that same orientation. Was he just blowing smoke, or is that possible? I can't seem to get past the saley pitch and "wow, your house is PERFECT". Am I right to be so skeptical? Can't help but feel like I'm being taken for a ride.

I saw this somewhere: "A PV system adds significant increase in property value. As a general rule, every $1 saved in electricity costs / year translates to an increase of $20 in the property’s value." That can't be, can it??

Also, I found this sitexxxxxxx that seems to shoot some pretty significant holes in the solar lease. Are all of these (or any) true?

Maybe your house is one on the street that can give you optimal solar production. But using the word "qualify" is iffy. Other houses I'm sure can benefit from solar, too, although maybe not optimal like yours to produce the most energy due to orientation.

Conventional wisdom says PV system may not add much value to your house. It depends on whether your real estate agent knows how to market it or not. And whether the buyer appreciates it or not. It's really a crapshoot and I wouldn't count on it adding too much value to the house. If I don't plan on staying in the house for more than 10 years at least, I wouldn't invest on solar panels on it.

Wow, that web site sure is anti-lease for solar. I bought my system so I don't have much to say about leasing. But if I did lease, I would probably have gone with a prepaid lease, not a normal lease.

[Ian S]

The guy told me our house was probably the only house on the street that qualifies for solar. I'm at the end of a cul-de-sac and my roof in the front points south with no gables, etc. whereas all the others aren't that same orientation. Was he just blowing smoke, or is that possible? I can't seem to get past the saley pitch and "wow, your house is PERFECT". Am I right to be so skeptical? Can't help but feel like I'm being taken for a ride.

I saw this somewhere: "A PV system adds significant increase in property value. As a general rule, every $1 saved in electricity costs / year translates to an increase of $20 in the property’s value." That can't be, can it??

Also, I found this site: http://www.solarleasebad.com/ that seems to shoot some pretty significant holes in the solar lease. Are all of these (or any) true?

What the salesman likely means is that your orientation is more ideal than others on your street. I'd really doubt that yours is the ONLY one where solar would make sense but without actually seeing the situation, it's hard to know for sure. I would not count on solar adding much if anything to the value of your home. If you have to incorporate that into your numbers to make them work out then solar is probably not a very good deal for you. As for that anti-lease site, I stopped reading at the following:

With advancements occurring weekly in the lab, 20 years is an eternity in the solar industry. Imagine your neighbors installing the latest sleekest, high efficiency solar panels on their roofs 10 years from now while you're stuck with the same antique solar panels for another 10 years.

That statement is one of the most idiotic I've seen. Only a complete fool would tear out and replace a working solar system just to get the sleekest and latest panels to keep up with the neighbors! IMHO, even though some good points are made regarding leasing, I wouldn't trust the author any more than I would a Kirby salesman.

Yes, the lease makes the lessor and its backers a lot of money but it's mostly at others' expense not yours. If you have the cash available and sitting in a bank savings account then by all means buy the system outright. But if you actually need to borrow the cash or take it out of decent yielding investments or heaven forbid, your IRA/401k, then it's not nearly as clearcut and you have to crunch the numbers to figure it all out. Here are some pros and cons of leasing vs purchase.

[Naptown]

= But if you actually need to borrow the cash or take it out of decent yielding investments or heaven forbid, your IRA/401k, then it's not nearly as clearcut and you have to crunch the numbers to figure it all out. Here are some pros and cons of leasing vs purchase.

vb

Taking it from your 401K may not be as bad as it sounds.
A loan if your job is secure may make sense if your fund is invested very conservatively. At least you are paying the interest to your self

[russ]

The entire anti leasing thing was just an advertisement for a slimy high pressure sales bunch - you get to their ads at the end.

One can twist and turn most anything with enough effort. If there is a sliver of truth mixed in with a kg of BSit tends to make people believe the statement is correct.

Leases were much more favorable to the leasing company when they first came out. One member is busy trying to determine how to get out of a lease that he apparently got screwed on - which he won't manage.

Today many leases make perfectly good sense - depends on your situation.

[inetdog]

And one of the major factors to take into consideration for a lease other than prepaid or for a PPA is whether you will he keeping the house for the duration of the agreement.

Any lease or PPA with payments scheduled in the future can make selling the house complicated, so look carefully at termination options.

[Ian S]

And one of the major factors to take into consideration for a lease other than prepaid or for a PPA is whether you will he keeping the house for the duration of the agreement.

Any lease or PPA with payments scheduled in the future can make selling the house complicated, so look carefully at termination options.

Maybe it's just semantics but I wonder if it would be easier to sell a home with a PPA instead of a monthly lease. One could argue that with a PPA, you have a long term contract with a separate "power company" to provide a large portion of your electricity at a much lower rate than the regular POCO. "Lease payment" has a negative connotation that a long term deal for a reduced electric rate doesn't.

[inetdog]

Maybe it's just semantics but I wonder if it would be easier to sell a home with a PPA instead of a monthly lease. One could argue that with a PPA, you have a long term contract with a separate "power company" to provide a large portion of your electricity at a much lower rate than the regular POCO. "Lease payment" has a negative connotation that a long term deal for a reduced electric rate doesn't.

Perhaps, but it is still a restriction on the power purchase options available to the buyer and so might cause problems. YMMV.
And are PPAs typically written to follow the property, or are there specific exit options if the property changes hands? I have never looked into the details.

[jlatenight]

A guy is on my roof taking measurements and assessing its solar potential as we speak. I have a meeting today at 2pm to review his findings. Can you guys come up with a handful of key questions to ask the guy? I guess the main thing to ask besides price is how much wattage the system will generate. What are other questions to ask? Thank's a lot for everyone's help!! -Jon

[J.P.M.]

A guy is on my roof taking measurements and assessing its solar potential as we speak. I have a meeting today at 2pm to review his findings. Can you guys come up with a handful of key questions to ask the guy? I guess the main thing to ask besides price is how much wattage the system will generate. What are other questions to ask? Thank's a lot for everyone's help!! -Jon

I'd spend some time rooting around this forum. Read, study, think, learn, repeat. Don't be in a super hurry. If saving money in a cost effective way is a goal, lower your electrical load before adding expensive solar electricity. Throwing solar scatter gun approach at a large electric bill is usually not the most cost effective course of action. Many folks put the cart before the horse and take the solar plunge before they educate themselves and determine what makes the most sense for them. Sounds like you may have jumped over the side without learning to swim yet. Caveat Emptor.

[prhamilton]

You are going to want to know the annual production estimate in kWh. You can take that number and compute the price/kWh. You will need to decide if you want to use a 20 or 25 year lifetime. But to me the price per kWh is the most important number for your own ROI calculations. He is going to give you the watts DC which is really the size of the system without factoring system efficiency, orientation, shading and sun hours. Price per watt DC is a good number to compare prices between vendors because each vendor is going to use different assumptions to estimate the annual kWh.

You are going to want to understand how he is installing the panels. I've seen some ugly installations. High roof standoffs increase the efficiency of the panels but don't always look so good. Low profiles tend to look better. Conduit runs and inverter location are also important. I don't want conduit running all over the roof and sides of my house. The inverter should be in a cool place that also minimizes the wire runs from the panel. You also probably want it somewhere inconspicuous.

Ask about the equipment. I don't have enough experience with all the different panel manufactures to know if there are any to avoid but others probably do. Same goes for the inverter, powerone and sma seem to be the market leaders.

Is this a local installer or one of the big guys? Make sure whoever it is they know you are getting several quotes, competitive bidding is key to getting a fair price.

Just like buying a car I think it is best to focus on the purchase price first. If you are going to lease handle those terms second, otherwise there are too many variables.

[jlatenight]

Thanks for the reply JPM. I've had my house assessed for energy efficiency and based on that I added a second layer of insulation in the attic, CFL's, sealed-up all gaps, weather stripping, etc. I have energy efficient appliances. It just seems like trying to understand the whole solar thing is very complicated. Lots of differing opinions, tons of variables, everyone's situation is different, etc. I wish someone could make a fill-in-the-blank worksheet with all the critical info; how much energy I use, the cost of my electricity, and the details from the solar eval I'm getting (size of potential system, output, etc) with the cost and terms of the system minus the rebates incentives, etc to tell me whether it's worth it or not. Does something like that exist?

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for the reply JPM. I've had my house assessed for energy efficiency and based on that I added a second layer of insulation in the attic, CFL's, sealed-up all gaps, weather stripping, etc. I have energy efficient appliances. It just seems like trying to understand the whole solar thing is very complicated. Lots of differing opinions, tons of variables, everyone's situation is different, etc. I wish someone could make a fill-in-the-blank worksheet with all the critical info; how much energy I use, the cost of my electricity, and the details from the solar eval I'm getting (size of potential system, output, etc) with the cost and terms of the system to tell me whether it's worth it or not. Does something like that exist?

You're Welcome. I suppose sometimes folks think I'm an arrogant SOB, probably w/ some justification. No offense intended.

FWIW, such checklists probably do exist. I doubt they don't do as much harm as good in many situations partly by leading hapless consumers into thinking they are solving all their problems with the wave of a piece of paper, not to mention that such tactics may conveniently sidestep the issue of perhaps not doing solar at all which in many cases is the most cost effective decision, contrary to what subjective opinions may hold. Every situation is different although there are usually many similarities among users. I do not believe there is a better way than deciding what you want to accomplish, doing your own research and adjusting goals as you learn more.

Learn & understand how you are charged for electricity. This is a PITA but very worth the effort.

The best observation I've had about this is to question everything everyone says and try like hell to know the answers to your questions before you ask. Do your own homework. You'll learn more, be better informed and hopefully get B.S.'d less or at least be better able to smell it when it comes out of a peddler's mouth. Not everyone who tells you what you want to hear is your friend. Not everyone who tells you what you don't want to hear is your enemy.

Choose your vendor carefully. This is probably at least as important as buying good equipment. If solar is your choice, a good vendor is the key to a successful installation from start and several years down the road. I chose bidders who have been in business for a long time as elec. contractors and have reputation. They usually know how to run a project, deal w/ inspections, meet a payroll and know the value of customer relations, among other things.

On Price : it's bad to pay too much, but worse to pay too little. Buy cheap - buy twice. Good vendors are worth a premium - just how much is your call. Competitive bids help this some.

The salesperson's goal is to leave your home with an order for goods and services. Don't be rushed. A good deal today will still be good next week. Caveat Emptor.

[prhamilton]

The vendor is going to give a pretty detailed sheet with a lot of that information. I have spreadsheet I used that I can share, wanted to look at ROI if the rates didn't go up 3% year, a lot of ROI assume that. I also wanted to see played a discount rate and see how that effected ROI. It might be nice to have all the really knowledgeable people on the forum contribute to a checklist/spreadsheet as a sticky topic. There are some good online tools like pvwatts at NREL that are really helpful too.

Do you know your annual usage from PGE? If you have that and you expect it remain pretty stable for the next 5 years then sizing the system is going to be easy. If your annual usage doesn't have all your conservation then you are going to need to either estimate your new usage or wait a year. I would shoot for replacing all but 150 kWh per month with solar, that will leave you right in the middle of tier 1 and give you a fudge factor so you don't over or under produce.

I will say that it is a good time to be considering solar in CA. You can read up on net-metering and the upcoming changes from AB327(this is a good summary ab327 Factsheet). The take away for me is that CA net metering(NEM) is a good deal for solar as it stands right now. AB327 dictates changes to the program for 2017. In the next two weeks California Public Utilities Commision is going to release the transition plan to the new net metering rate structure. They are widely expected to grandfather in existing solar systems for 10-20 years, the decision is due March 31st. The uncertainy can make ROI calculation and future savings difficult to analyze.

Add to that the federal tax credit ends in 2016 and you can see you are in a bit of sweet spot right now. I am concerned that once people in California start to realize that they need to get installed by X date to get grandfathered in to the current net metering pricing there is going to be a lot more installs and prices will creep up.

Long story short, I would get several bids. You can get them very quickly online. I got 5 bids, 4 of them online in little more than an hour. I spoke with Solar City, Real Good Solar, Sungevity and The Solar Co. I also got a quote from a local installer. I recommend getting quotes from at least one 'big vendor' and one 'local installer'. The big vendors all had the same feel to me but the local installer was very different. Local guys was low pressure and easy going, big guys more salesman-y and had high prices that would magically come down(like buying a car, let me check with my manager). Best thing you can do is tell them you are getting 5 different quotes.

Also I found this forum to be invaluable, I'd say you are definitely on the right track.

[jlatenight]

Thanks for your great replies too, PR. very helpful! Keep in mind I'm in MA, not CA. Here's some info on my power usage: I'm paying $0.18/kwh and I use an average of 1,088kwh/mo. In 2013, the lowest month was May at 672kwh and the highest was Aug at 2113kwh. Can you elaborate a little on this statement:

I would shoot for replacing all but 150 kWh per month with solar, that will leave you right in the middle of tier 1 and give you a fudge factor so you don't over or under produce.