Roofing & Solar in Bay Area

[MadDog]

Hello All,
We are trying to get our roof replaced and get solar at the same time. Our usage was about 11,000KWhrs for 2013 WITHOUT using A/C during the summer months. We have an electric car and a pool pump that make up the bulk of our usage. The motivation for solar is to be able to use A/C which we were not able to last year (since we switched to the E9-A (time of use) rate plan) and it is very expensive to use electricity during the summer peak (starting at $0.35 / KWhr, going up to $0.51 / KWhr). We have been trying to cut down our usage as much as possible (installing new LED bulbs, shutting down lights when not in use, etc.)

We have been getting quotes from roofers that do solar because we want to deal with only one company in case anything goes wrong. We don't want a roofer saying that its the solar installer's fault and vice-versa. Some of the quotes we have got are (NOTE: All figures are before incentives)

Quote 1:
14 Sharp 250W panels with Enphase M215 micro inverters - $18,000 ($5.14/DC Watt)

Quote 2:
14 Sunpower X21-335W panels with 1 SunPower SPR-5000m central inverter - $29,000 ($6.18/DC Watt)

Quote 3:
16 LG 290W panels with Enphase M215 micro inverters - $24,499 ($5.28/DC Watt)

I've been reading through this forum and found a wealth of information, mostly pointing to the fact that these are on the very high side. I found out about the CSI database as well, but it doesn't have the recent information since the PG&E rebates ran out.

I'm wondering if anyone has gotten both roof and solar in the San Jose area and if so what were their quotes. I'm wondering if it will it be better to just go with 2 different companies (cost wise)?

I appreciate all help.

Thanks!

[Volusiano]

Our usage was about 11,000KWhrs for 2013 WITHOUT using A/C during the summer months. We have an electric car and a pool pump that make up the bulk of our usage. The motivation for solar is to be able to use A/C which we were not able to last year (since we switched to the E9-A (time of use) rate plan) and it is very expensive to use electricity during the summer peak (starting at $0.35 / KWhr, going up to $0.51 / KWhr). We have been trying to cut down our usage as much as possible (installing new LED bulbs, shutting down lights when not in use, etc.)

I was in the same boat, with a TOU plan and an electric car and a pool pump. The pool pump was a 3HP Pentair that ran at 3400 RPM and used as much as 30% of our electricity before. I switched to a variable speed Pentair pump an run it at 1400 RPM, and the consumption (on the pump alone) went down by more than 90% (from near 3KW to 260W). That eliminates roughly almost 30% of our over all electricity bill. If you're still on a single speed pool pump, I'd recommend looking hard at switching to a variable speed pump. At least it won't be the bulk of your usage anymore.

I also minimize AC use in the summer time during peak time due to my TOU plan. But I placed all my solar panels on my west roof to maximize solar production during the on-peak time so I can run more AC to a more comfortable level during summer on-peak without having to pay the premium for on-peak rate. If you decide to stick with your TOU plan long term, factor this in on the placement of your panels. If you have both south facing and west facing roof space, do an in-depth analysis on your ROI with both placements to help you decide which is best.

I also reroofed the part where my solar panels were placed. I didn't use the same company for both, but the roofer I used was recommended by the solar installer. So they have a good relationship with each other and they work together well. So this is another way to go if you can't find a company that does both roofing and solar installation, or if such a company doesn't give you a competitive quote.

[MadDog]

Pool Info

I was in the same boat, with a TOU plan and an electric car and a pool pump. The pool pump was a 3HP Pentair that ran at 3400 RPM and used as much as 30% of our electricity before. I switched to a variable speed Pentair pump an run it at 1400 RPM, and the consumption (on the pump alone) went down by more than 90% (from near 3KW to 260W). That eliminates roughly almost 30% of our over all electricity bill. If you're still on a single speed pool pump, I'd recommend looking hard at switching to a variable speed pump. At least it won't be the bulk of your usage anymore.

I also minimize AC use in the summer time during peak time due to my TOU plan. But I placed all my solar panels on my west roof to maximize solar production during the on-peak time so I can run more AC to a more comfortable level during summer on-peak without having to pay the premium for on-peak rate. If you decide to stick with your TOU plan long term, factor this in on the placement of your panels. If you have both south facing and west facing roof space, do an in-depth analysis on your ROI with both placements to help you decide which is best.

I also reroofed the part where my solar panels were placed. I didn't use the same company for both, but the roofer I used was recommended by the solar installer. So they have a good relationship with each other and they work together well. So this is another way to go if you can't find a company that does both roofing and solar installation, or if such a company doesn't give you a competitive quote.

My research has also indicated that the pool pump is an energy sink. I've started looking into the replacing the pool pump as well with a variable speed one. I found out that it reduces the electric consumption, but 90% is amazing! Is Pentiar a good company? Are you happy with it/any issues?

I still have to look into the placement of the panels. We have limited south facing roof & decent west facing roof which we can use. Placing more on the west side to maximize peak hour production for offsetting A/C usage is interesting. I'll look more into that. Till now I was just thinking place as many on south as possible and the rest of the west. The problem is that I'm hearing that a new law has been passed that requires a 3 feet clearance from the ridge lines for the fire code, beginning Jan 1st, 2014. A couple of the contractors told me that the law was passed but not being enforced by the city of San Jose. Another one told me that they are strictly enforcing it in San Jose. Has any one else heard about it?

Thanks for the info, Volusiano...

[Volusiano]

My research has also indicated that the pool pump is an energy sink. I've started looking into the replacing the pool pump as well with a variable speed one. I found out that it reduces the electric consumption, but 90% is amazing! Is Pentiar a good company? Are you happy with it/any issues?

I still have to look into the placement of the panels. We have limited south facing roof & decent west facing roof which we can use. Placing more on the west side to maximize peak hour production for offsetting A/C usage is interesting. I'll look more into that. Till now I was just thinking place as many on south as possible and the rest of the west. The problem is that I'm hearing that a new law has been passed that requires a 3 feet clearance from the ridge lines for the fire code, beginning Jan 1st, 2014. A couple of the contractors told me that the law was passed but not being enforced by the city of San Jose. Another one told me that they are strictly enforcing it in San Jose. Has any one else heard about it?

Thanks for the info, Volusiano...

My original Pentair single speed pump lasted for 15 years and was still running just fine. Of course every 5 years or so, the o-ring seals started to leak and needed replacement, but that's just wear and tear maintenance. The pump itself refuses to die. The new variable speed pump is also Pentair. I think only Pentair and Hayward make variable speed pump. Or at least only those 2 brands of variable speed pumps are sold in my area. I've only had the new variable speed pump for a few months, so no issue so far. The reason you save a lot of energy running at lower speed is because the power consumption curve goes up exponentially as you increase the rpm on your pump. So by dialing back the rpm to around the sweet spot where the knee of this curve is, you can get dramatic reduction in power consumption. You'd just have to run your pump longer for the same water turn-over. But it's good to circulate water for as long as possible anyway to reduce stagnancy. If your pool has special features like in-floor cleaning or waterfall that requires running the pump at higher RPM, then maybe you can't save as much if you still have to run at high RPM. I have in-floor cleaning but I decided to switch over to use a robot floor cleaner instead which can run just fine at 1400 rpm. The robot floor cleaner actually does a better job cleaning my floor than the in-floor system. It's just a little more hassle to set it up each time and more unsightly. But I generally only need to do floor cleaning once in a while anyway.

If you decide to place your panels on different roof sides, you may want to make sure you pick an inverter that supports multiple MPPTs and make sure they're on different MPPT inputs on your inverter.

[slopoke]

I live in Livermore and signed a contract for 23 LG-300 watt panels and 23 Enphase micro inverters for a pre incentive price of $3.75 a watt. You should be able to get close or lower.

As far as the CSI data goes, if you use cities with a labor and materials cost similar to your area, it's an apples to apples comparison. Plus the Southern Ca data has the newer higher watt panels and recent pricing. Don't let the sales person BS you and tell you that the Southern California data is not appropriate for us up here. I've stated that it is an apples to apples comparison and the tunes changed and prices came down. Good luck.

[J.P.M.]

i live in livermore and signed a contract for 23 lg-300 watt panels and 23 enphase micro inverters for a pre incentive price of $3.75 a watt. You should be able to get close or lower.

As far as the csi data goes, if you use cities with a labor and materials cost similar to your area, it's an apples to apples comparison. Plus the southern ca data has the newer higher watt panels and recent pricing. Don't let the sales person bs you and tell you that the southern california data is not appropriate for us up here. I've stated that it is an apples to apples comparison and the tunes changed and prices came down. Good luck.

fwiw, amen !

[albert436]

Thanks Volusiano, I didn't know that about pool pumps, just had look at the Pentair site, etc.

I'm also interesting in an ozone water cleaning system for the pool, depending on the cost. So much nicer to swim in water that doesn't have so much chlorine.

[MadDog]

I live in Livermore and signed a contract for 23 LG-300 watt panels and 23 Enphase micro inverters for a pre incentive price of $3.75 a watt. You should be able to get close or lower.

As far as the CSI data goes, if you use cities with a labor and materials cost similar to your area, it's an apples to apples comparison. Plus the Southern Ca data has the newer higher watt panels and recent pricing. Don't let the sales person BS you and tell you that the Southern California data is not appropriate for us up here. I've stated that it is an apples to apples comparison and the tunes changed and prices came down. Good luck.

That's a great price. I don't have any shading issues but wouldn't mind the per panel monitoring that you can get with micro inverters. These were M250 I assume? Have you had any clipping issues with the 300W panel? Did you have to pay extra for the monitoring? Is their web-site any good at showing you the per panel performance?

Did you get the system installed in 2014? If so, did the Livermore city give you grief about the 3 feet clearance from the ridge line or you have enough roof space and did not have to worry about it?

[slopoke]

That's a great price. I don't have any shading issues but wouldn't mind the per panel monitoring that you can get with micro inverters. These were M250 I assume? Have you had any clipping issues with the 300W panel? Did you have to pay extra for the monitoring? Is their web-site any good at showing you the per panel performance?

Did you get the system installed in 2014? If so, did the Livermore city give you grief about the 3 feet clearance from the ridge line or you have enough roof space and did not have to worry about it?

They are going to be installed on Thursday, so I can't give you any performance data yet. Yes we had to use the 36" setback rule and it states in my contract that the Envoy unit and lifetime free monitoring is included with the M250 micro inverters, hopefully they won't try to tack on an extra charge. As far as the panel performance goes, their website does not have it.

[Volusiano]

Thanks Volusiano, I didn't know that about pool pumps, just had look at the Pentair site, etc.

I'm also interesting in an ozone water cleaning system for the pool, depending on the cost. So much nicer to swim in water that doesn't have so much chlorine.

I had an ozone system for my pool, too. The light burned out after a few years. I never bothered replacing it again. I recently talked to the guy who replaced my pool pump, and he said that most people with the ozone system don't bother replacing their burned out light. I can understand why people don't bother like I didn't. It's because you have to connect an air hose to your pump and bleed ozonated (I made up that word) air into the pump. This is a hassle because you have to keep fine tuning the amount of air bled into the water to be just right. Too much air and you'll get it trapped in your filter. Too little air and it's not effective enough. I had to mess around with it all the times, and I really didn't care for it. So when the light bulb burned out, I just closed off the air bleed and decommissioned the ozonator for good. I could never really tell how effective it was to have that system to begin with. In the end, I felt that it was a gimmicky product and not very reliable, so I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. The pool pump install guy concurred with me. He said he saw so many of those units sitting around unused because their light bulb burned out and pool owners don't care to fix it anymore.

[Volusiano]

That's a great price. I don't have any shading issues but wouldn't mind the per panel monitoring that you can get with micro inverters.

If you don't have shading issues, I wouldn't recommend going with microinverters or local optimizers. Google and read up on "The Great MicroInverters Debate" to understand why.

[MadDog]

They are going to be installed on Thursday, so I can't give you any performance data yet. Yes we had to use the 36" setback rule and it states in my contract that the Envoy unit and lifetime free monitoring is included with the M250 micro inverters, hopefully they won't try to tack on an extra charge. As far as the panel performance goes, their website does not have it.

What is the warranty on the LG panels? I was interested in them too... They have one of the highest watts/sq. ft. in addition to SunPower, which I am interested in, as I have limited south facing roof. Was there a particular reason you went with LG like the watts/sq. ft. or just the best price you got was for the LG panels.

[slopoke]

What is the warranty on the LG panels? I was interested in them too... They have one of the highest watts/sq. ft. in addition to SunPower, which I am interested in, as I have limited south facing roof. Was there a particular reason you went with LG like the watts/sq. ft. or just the best price you got was for the LG panels.

The product warranty is 10 years and output warranty is 25. I went with the LG panels because of the higher wattage 300 panels were a lot cheaper than a SunPower panel. I have a roof with a lot of hips and valleys, so I have to have two different arrays and yes roof area is the reason why I wanted a higher wattage panel.

[MadDog]

The product warranty is 10 years and output warranty is 25. I went with the LG panels because of the higher wattage 300 panels were a lot cheaper than a SunPower panel. I have a roof with a lot of hips and valleys, so I have to have two different arrays and yes roof area is the reason why I wanted a higher wattage panel.

I'm sorry but what is the difference between product warranty and output warranty? Do you know if their warranty covers labor?

On a side note, do you know warranty for the SunPower panels and if they cover labor?

[MadDog]

If you don't have shading issues, I wouldn't recommend going with microinverters or local optimizers. Google and read up on "The Great MicroInverters Debate" to understand why.

Interesting read... however the author himself is using Enphase micro inverters. Why do you recommend not to go with them? Is it because you don't believe that they will last the 25 yrs that Enphase is saying they will or are you pointing to the fact that there are so many of them and the cost to replace them might be high?

Does Enphase provide labor with their warranty or only the materials?