My first quote in Texas. Please give your thoughts!

[rubdom]

Hello everyone,

I am currently shopping around in San Antonio for some solar quotes. I received my first estimate and wanted to run it by all the experts here to see if it makes sense to do solar in San Antonio. I also received some preliminary numbers from another company and they seem to be around the same out of pocket cost but with Sun power panels. Once I receive the official estimate I will post some numbers here. Any guidance would be very much appreciated!!! Also, just want everyone to know that I am looking to pull the trigger soon since San Antonio's net metering program is set to change in April and any system install prior will be grandfathered in. Also power company rebates seem to go down every year in Q1 and we are quickly approaching that time.

Modules: Canadian Solar CS6P-250P 8,221 kWh

# of Modules: 24 Annual Usage: 16,685 kWh

Inverter: Power One Aurora PVI5000 240 49.3 %

# of Inverters: 1 182,735 kWh

System Size: 6.00 kW DC 5.26 kW AC

Monitoring: Upgrade Available

Racking: ProSolar Rooftrac

First year production: 8,221 kWh
Annual usage: $16,685 kWh
Percent of annual usage: 49.3%
25 year total production: 182,735 kWh

Price per Watt: $3.50
Gross system cost: $20,982.41 (includes tax and permit fees)
CPS rebate: ($8,413.92)
Out of pocket costs: $12,568.49
Fed tax: ($3771)
Year one net cost: $8798

Panel power: 25 years
Panel defect: 10 years
Inverter defect: 10 years
Workmanship: 10 years

[Ian S]

Price appears reasonable especially with the great incentives you have available to you. What is your current cost per kWh including fees and taxes? Also what is your rate structure i.e. a single or multiple tiers, time-of-use factors, etc.? How is your net metering - if any - set up? Do you plan to stay in the home for many years? I would also say that if you can get an equivalent Sunpower system for the same money, I'd be seriously considering that instead.

[J.P.M.]

Hello everyone,

I am currently shopping around in San Antonio for some solar quotes. I received my first estimate and wanted to run it by all the experts here to see if it makes sense to do solar in San Antonio. I also received some preliminary numbers from another company and they seem to be around the same out of pocket cost but with Sun power panels. Once I receive the official estimate I will post some numbers here. Any guidance would be very much appreciated!!! Also, just want everyone to know that I am looking to pull the trigger soon since San Antonio's net metering program is set to change in April and any system install prior will be grandfathered in. Also power company rebates seem to go down every year in Q1 and we are quickly approaching that time.

Modules: Canadian Solar CS6P-250P 8,221 kWh

# of Modules: 24 Annual Usage: 16,685 kWh

Inverter: Power One Aurora PVI5000 240 49.3 %

# of Inverters: 1 182,735 kWh

System Size: 6.00 kW DC 5.26 kW AC

Monitoring: Upgrade Available

Racking: ProSolar Rooftrac

First year production: 8,221 kWh
Annual usage: $16,685 kWh
Percent of annual usage: 49.3%
25 year total production: 182,735 kWh

Price per Watt: $3.50
Gross system cost: $20,982.41 (includes tax and permit fees)
CPS rebate: ($8,413.92)
Out of pocket costs: $12,568.49
Fed tax: ($3771)
Year one net cost: $8798

Panel power: 25 years
Panel defect: 10 years
Inverter defect: 10 years
Workmanship: 10 years

I'd say if you can get new Sunpower stuff for the same $/D.C. Watt as Canadian Solar, do it. $3.50/D.C. for S.p. would be nice.

[Sunking]

You had better look at your utility company first and see what they pay for excess. If they pay you wholesale, you are screwed. Even if they pay you retail can be bad if all you pay is 9-cents per Kwh like most Texans pay.

[rubdom]

Price appears reasonable especially with the great incentives you have available to you. What is your current cost per kWh including fees and taxes? Also what is your rate structure i.e. a single or multiple tiers, time-of-use factors, etc.? How is your net metering - if any - set up? Do you plan to stay in the home for many years? I would also say that if you can get an equivalent Sunpower system for the same money, I'd be seriously considering that instead.

My kWh rate is around 10 cents with all taxes and fees included. I plan to stay in the house for at least another 18 years. The proposal has estimated paybacks at 9.2 cents (see below). The net metering program is ok but the problem is that they base it off a monthly cycle and only pay you retail rate for the energy you use. Any energy you don't use in any given 30 day cycle they pay you 1.2 cents kWh so you can't size your system to cover your summer bill. Wish they based net metering on an annual basis.
I have yet to see the Sun Power written quote from company B, but when we talked he said it was $7974 for a 5.2 DC system. My calculations put that at $1.52 per kWh after all rebates vs. the $1.46 per kWh for the Canadian proposal from company A.


Utility savings over 25 years $27,590
Estimated 1st year ROI: 8.48%
Estimated Cashflow Payback: 10 years
Solar Energy Price per kWh: $0.048
Current assumed electric rate per kWh: 0.092
Current average monthly bill $127.92
Average monthly bill with solar: $65.74
Estimated property value increase: $8,340
Break even point: < 1 year

[beatme]

Estimated property value increase: $8,340
Break even point: < 1 year

Don't believe what they tell you for property value increase. It is highly location and buyer dependent. In some cases it is $0.

[rubdom]

Don't believe what they tell you for property value increase. It is highly location and buyer dependent. In some cases it is $0.

I did hear that. I also heard it can actually lower your property value in some areas. I think in San Antonio for the most part it will increase value but im not taking their estimate to heart.

[J.P.M.]

Don't believe what they tell you for property value increase. It is highly location and buyer dependent. In some cases it is $0.

Second that. FWIW: My observation(s) and (very limited) experience with respect to property values and solar energy:

- Data is limited.
- Seems to make no quantifiable difference in my neighborhood.
- Those making the most noise about solar energy increasing property values seems to be real estate peddlers whose knowledge of solar energy often seems limited, or solar vendors who know squat about real estate.
- In the future, I'm not sure people will consider an "old" solar electric system on a roof as an advantage as much as a liability. If I was looking at property today that had, say, a 10 yr. old system on the roof I might think about how much it would cost to remove it, inspect/repaper the roof and replace it with a probably more efficient, smaller, newer and therefore "better" system. If I did think that way, the existing system would probably be considered a liability rather than a selling point.

[SunEagle]

Second that. FWIW: My observation(s) and (very limited) experience with respect to property values and solar energy:

- Data is limited.
- Seems to make no quantifiable difference in my neighborhood.
- Those making the most noise about solar energy increasing property values seems to be real estate peddlers whose knowledge of solar energy often seems limited, or solar vendors who know squat about real estate.
- In the future, I'm not sure people will consider an "old" solar electric system on a roof as an advantage as much as a liability. If I was looking at property today that had, say, a 10 yr. old system on the roof I might think about how much it would cost to remove it, inspect/repaper the roof and replace it with a probably more efficient, smaller, newer and therefore "better" system. If I did think that way, the existing system would probably be considered a liability rather than a selling point.

One selling point is to show a potential buyer your electric bill. Sometimes people on a budget like the idea of keeping their utility costs low.

[rubdom]

Second that. FWIW: My observation(s) and (very limited) experience with respect to property values and solar energy:

- Data is limited.
- Seems to make no quantifiable difference in my neighborhood.
- Those making the most noise about solar energy increasing property values seems to be real estate peddlers whose knowledge of solar energy often seems limited, or solar vendors who know squat about real estate.
- In the future, I'm not sure people will consider an "old" solar electric system on a roof as an advantage as much as a liability. If I was looking at property today that had, say, a 10 yr. old system on the roof I might think about how much it would cost to remove it, inspect/repaper the roof and replace it with a probably more efficient, smaller, newer and therefore "better" system. If I did think that way, the existing system would probably be considered a liability rather than a selling point.

Interesting. I never thought of that. When I go to sell my house in 20 years the buyer may see the system as a liability especially if the roof may need to be replaced at some point in the future.

[J.P.M.]

Interesting. I never thought of that. When I go to sell my house in 20 years the buyer may see the system as a liability especially if the roof may need to be replaced at some point in the future.

Unless documented, I'd assume the roof wasn't inspected/serviced when the array went up. All roofs need service at some point - solar topped or not, but especially those with approx. 1 added penetration per panel. When they do, some/most/all of the array will need to be moved/put back - kind of like reinstalling - probably by a roofer with limited knowledge of how to handle solar electric. That extra work will perhaps not be cheap, and I'd be dubious of the care taken. I'm saying that it can be a rather obvious added cost and hassle which may not be a strong selling point and something that more than a few buyer's may think of, and something that if nothing else, potential sellers may want to ponder if only to come up with convincing counterpoints - think like the other guy - that's all.

As for lower utility bills - that may be a valid point for some, maybe a lot of home buyers. However, my guess is most people don't buy homes to reduce their utility bills. Since right now solar seems to be the darling of the financially well heeled, I'd suspect utility budgetary constraints are not as big an issue for someone looking at a currently solar equipped home, which right now tends to be bigger and more expensive. I'd also suspect and suggest that those folks with serious budgetary constraints are likely already aware of the financial advantages of conservation over solar and may likely find an existing solar system oversized and thus somewhat inappropriate for their needs, sensibilities or lifestyles. But, opinions vary.

[rubdom]

Company B came back with Sunpower. I was around the same out of pocket costs but for a smaller system. Here are the numbers. I would appreciate any feedback. Also will post the Sun Edison and LG 290 quote (don't have yet).

16 SunPower 327W Solar Modules 1 Monitoring System

1 SMA String Inverter System 1 NEC Compliant Electrical Equipment

1 Racking System 1 Miscellaneous Materials

Cost / Incentives breakdown

Total Cost: $ 21,451.20

Utility Rebate: $ (7,407.21)

Out of Pocket Cost: $ 14,043.99

Federal Tax Credits: $ (6,435.36) Looks like this is being calculated off total. Would be (4,212) if after rebate.

Adjusted Total $ 7,608.63

Breaks down to about $1.45 per Watt or $1.89 depending how you calculate tax savings after incentives. So its about 0.43 per watt higher as company A's Canadian solar quote.


Here is the Sun Edison:

16 Sun Edison 265 Solar Modules 1 Enphase Monitoring System

16 Enphase Micro Inverters 1 NEC Compliant Electrical Equipment

1 Racking System 1 Miscellaneous Materials

Cost / Incentives breakdown

Total Cost: $ 15,476.00

Utility Rebate: $ (5,812.22)

Out of Pocket Cost: $ 9,663.78

Federal Tax Credits: $ (4,642.80) Again this would be $2,898 for after rebate tax incentive

Adjusted Total $ 5,020.98

This one would be $1.18 or $1.59 per Watt after incentives depending on tax calculation.

[Volusiano]

Unless documented, I'd assume the roof wasn't inspected/serviced when the array went up. All roofs need service at some point - solar topped or not, but especially those with approx. 1 added penetration per panel. When they do, some/most/all of the array will need to be moved/put back - kind of like reinstalling - probably by a roofer with limited knowledge of how to handle solar electric. That extra work will perhaps not be cheap, and I'd be dubious of the care taken. I'm saying that it can be a rather obvious added cost and hassle which may not be a strong selling point and something that more than a few buyer's may think of, and something that if nothing else, potential sellers may want to ponder if only to come up with convincing counterpoints - think like the other guy - that's all.

My tile roof house is 17.5 years old and before I installed my panels, I had a roofer come and take a look at the underlayment to see how much longer it'll hold up. He said it still seems to be in good shape, maybe good for another 5-10 years. I asked him to go ahead and put a new underlayment on anyway, not for the whole roof, but only under where the panels will go on. I took care to have them expand the coverage out all the way to the nearby ridge and rake and bottom edge where it would be too tight to walk around for tile removal later on. So that part of my roof now should last the life of the panels hopefully. Receipt and drawing of coverage fully documented and filed neatly with solar paperwork.

This way I don't have to redo the rest of the roof until I need to.

[J.P.M.]

Company B came back with Sunpower. I was around the same out of pocket costs but for a smaller system. Here are the numbers. I would appreciate any feedback. Also will post the Sun Edison and LG 290 quote (don't have yet).

16 SunPower 327W Solar Modules 1 Monitoring System

1 SMA String Inverter System 1 NEC Compliant Electrical Equipment

1 Racking System 1 Miscellaneous Materials

Cost / Incentives breakdown

Total Cost: $ 21,451.20

Utility Rebate: $ (7,407.21)

Out of Pocket Cost: $ 14,043.99

Federal Tax Credits: $ (6,435.36) Looks like this is being calculated off total. Would be (4,212) if after rebate.

Adjusted Total $ 7,608.63

Breaks down to about $1.45 per Watt or $1.89 depending how you calculate tax savings after incentives. So its about 0.43 per watt higher as company A's Canadian solar quote.


Here is the Sun Edison:

16 Sun Edison 265 Solar Modules 1 Enphase Monitoring System

16 Enphase Micro Inverters 1 NEC Compliant Electrical Equipment

1 Racking System 1 Miscellaneous Materials

Cost / Incentives breakdown

Total Cost: $ 15,476.00

Utility Rebate: $ (5,812.22)

Out of Pocket Cost: $ 9,663.78

Federal Tax Credits: $ (4,642.80) Again this would be $2,898 for after rebate tax incentive

Adjusted Total $ 5,020.98

This one would be $1.18 or $1.59 per Watt after incentives depending on tax calculation.

I'd get w/ my tax advisor and be careful with respect to how the vendor for the Sunpower and Sun Edison seems to be handling the rebates/credits. I know nothing of Texas rebates, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that those rebates reduce the federal tax credit. Until I found out otherwise from someone w/no skin in the game, I'd use the higher #'s.
Also, the Sun Edison system looks to be a fair amount smaller than the other two.
Given your net metering method, I'd look at 12 separate, average months of your utility use and costs before and after adding each system. Using one number for a total year can be a bit misleading in most cases - more so in your case. With your monthly net metering reset, some extra care may be called for to get an optimum size - if any. Doing nothing if it doesn't make financial sense to you is also an option.
Lastly, each of these 3 systems will have different outputs.

[J.P.M.]

My tile roof house is 17.5 years old and before I installed my panels, I had a roofer come and take a look at the underlayment to see how much longer it'll hold up. He said it still seems to be in good shape, maybe good for another 5-10 years. I asked him to go ahead and put a new underlayment on anyway, not for the whole roof, but only under where the panels will go on. I took care to have them expand the coverage out all the way to the nearby ridge and rake and bottom edge where it would be too tight to walk around for tile removal later on. So that part of my roof now should last the life of the panels hopefully. Receipt and drawing of coverage fully documented and filed neatly with solar paperwork.

This way I don't have to redo the rest of the roof until I need to.

I did the same. Cheap insurance. No guarantees except from the roofer and a lot of due diligence from the owner.