Looking for advice on getting solar panels done in NY

[russ]

As the Electrical Engineer for an Elite SunPower Dealer I think your projections of output may be a little high. The system I would design for the OP would probably be 32 SPR327NE-WHT-D panels if they would fit. This would just about zero out his usage. Andy

Projections? Bonaire was using his own historical data.

[mesol]

I mean no disrespect, but I'd suggest that after you read a bunch of posts here you get two books, one about solar energy and one about financial analysis and continue your education. From your questions it seems to me that you're like someone trying to get get into an elevator that's already gone up a floor. Do a little hard work and climb the stairs to catch up before you attempt to climb on the elevator. It's a free country, but a few bucks and time spent will pay big dividends. Tools like PV Watts can be valuable, but can also be a mine field for the uneducated. You have a lot to learn. Without something of the basics you may waste time and money - yours and others.

I understood the premises, the reason I was asking was because I wanted to confirm that what I understood was accurate since no context was provided. Aka, I didn't want to make assumptions and base what I know on a flawed assumption.

What the PV analysis presented by Russ shows is that for every kW of nameplate power of a system installed around your location with the parameters shown, you could expect around 1317 kWh annual production. If your roof faces southeast, you can change the azimuth to something like 135 deg and redo the calculation. In any event what you wind up with is an annual production number; how that translates into $$ saved will depend on your cost of electricity, rate structure (e.g. time-of-use, summer/winter, etc.), your usage patterns, and how the utility credits you for your production i.e. net metering, annual true-up, etc.

You will generally get the most bang for your buck if you minimize your net cost (after incentives) per kW of nameplate power of the system. When incentives are capped, there will be a sweet spot for that bang for your buck, above which it will be less. In other words, you can put in a larger system but you will get less bang for the buck. That also means it will almost certainly take longer for payback of your investment. I would also caution that utilities nationwide are attempting to limit the benefits of rooftop solar and they are doing this by moving away from net metering and drastically cutting what they will pay for over production. Just as an example, my system produces about 2/3 of my annual usage, yet because of the rate structure, I wind up with excess production at year's end which is essentially donated to the utility. Utilities are also mulling set monthly fees on rooftop solar customers so that you will never have a zero monthly bill.

The derate factor of 0.83 is used because that is a more real-life based number than the default 0.77 used by PV Watts.

There is a lot to consider but with the solar incentives in NY, solar can really pay off for you. Good luck!

Thanks, that is pretty much confirms what I got so far.

Different parts of NY have different cloud-cover due to the lakes effect of creating clouds. So, output can vary somewhat widely.

I am in SE PA, not far from NY. My 8.1 KW array put out about 11.4+ MWh since it was installed mid-December, 2012. I expect an average of about 10.5 MWh for each of the first 10 years, give or take. Depending on your clouds, you can use a 1.2 to 1.3 multiplier if you have good sun in NY. So, a 10KW array may put out 12-13 MWh a year.

There are fire codes for how close modules can be to the edge of the roof. NYSERDA has "rich" incentives now (much more than other states have had in the past) so NY is a prime target of solar PV installers and may have slightly higher pricing than when incentives are lower. For example, in Maryland, incentives seem to be low and installer/member here named Naptown says he can do systems well below $4/Watt installed. In incentive rich states like CA and NY, you would be quoted $4.50 or higher. Some areas of CA are $5.50/Watt. This is called "working the system" and taking advantage of the incentives while the homeowner says "hey, I am getting big incentives so overpaying doesn't hurt that badly".

Don't pay more than $4/Watt when you buy *or* lease. Determine fair market value of the system and how they quote you on it. Make sure someone isn't using you to make above-fair-market value money for them.

Pay cash for a system. If you are taking loans out for Solar PV, you are risking money that may put you at risk. Many HELOC loans are variant based on the base interest rates and can float up. You may end up paying more than you save. So, hopefully going green is in your family budget ongoing.

I have Solar. I also drive an EV. I can see that there still is a lot of working the system going on and also see the oversized NY state NYSERDA incentives paying way more than is equitable and will run out long before enough people can benefit from it. It would be better to pay an incentive of .50/Watt rather than 1.15/Watt. Over twice the installed base could be established. My son's college is doing a 3 MW array near campus (they are buying into a PPA agreement) that may not be fully incented by NYSERDA (due to its size). All that going to one single installation versus spread to many families who might be able to take advantage of it. And solar really does very little to help people who are low-income who really could benefit from lowered electric bills.

Program runs through late 2015 but has some TBD aspects to the current funding.

http://www.nyserda.ny.gov/Funding-Op...ncentives.aspx

Well, I am as far from the lakes as it gets. According to charts I am at the spot of NY which gets the most sunlight as far as NY goes. As far as costs being influenced by the incentives, maybe. But at same time everything is more expensive in CA and NY as they have some of the highest cost of living. So in general labor is more expensive. But of course I am planning to shop with cost of the system in mind. And I don't particularly like taking loans unless the loan is 0 interest and then pay it out when 0 interest expires. This year I finish paying the mortgage so it should be fine financially to buy it in full.

As the Electrical Engineer for an Elite SunPower Dealer I think your projections of output may be a little high. The system I would design for the OP would probably be 32 SPR327NE-WHT-D panels if they would fit. This would just about zero out his usage. Andy

I might have more space than I think. Depending on how the sun shading is and if it is an issue to place solar panels in 2 locations spread apart.

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  \    <-I am thinking solar goes here
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           \    <- will here be shaded by the top if it is located in south east?
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[inetdog]

I might have more space than I think. Depending on how the sun shading is and if it is an issue to place solar panels in 2 locations spread apart.

\
  \    <-I am thinking solar goes here
     \
       \
      |
      |  
        \
           \    <- will here be shaded by the top if it is located in south east?
             \   
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Yes, it is possible that the lower set/panel will be shaded by the upper one. But you need to look at how low the sun is in the sky when the shading occurs. If the sun is low, then the production of the panels may be so low that the loss in production from shading may not be worth worrying about.

A lot of people who start out looking at trackers realize that the results are not as good as they hoped once they increase the panel spacing to allow for all of the positions of the tracker mounts causing different shading.

[J.P.M.]

As the Electrical Engineer for an Elite SunPower Dealer I think your projections of output may be a little high. The system I would design for the OP would probably be 32 SPR327NE-WHT-D panels if they would fit. This would just about zero out his usage. Andy

1.) Like Russ wrote, Bonaire's #'s are historical, not projections. Perhaps your projections are a bit low ?

2.) My experience with vendor's projections seems to agree with your comment - Vendor projections are usually low.

3.) Giving your motives the benefit of the doubt, it sounds like you're assuming the most cost effective option is to zero out the bill. IMO, That may not be the best choice - at least as far as economics is concerned. Do you ask customers what size system they have in mind ? Do you ever offer customers info on things such as levelized cost of energy as f(system size), that sort of thing, or help them make a more informed decision?

[mesol]

Yes, it is possible that the lower set/panel will be shaded by the upper one. But you need to look at how low the sun is in the sky when the shading occurs. If the sun is low, then the production of the panels may be so low that the loss in production from shading may not be worth worrying about.

A lot of people who start out looking at trackers realize that the results are not as good as they hoped once they increase the panel spacing to allow for all of the positions of the tracker mounts causing different shading.

I get what your saying.



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Just out of curiosity, I have been thinking. Would it be possible to have separate meters for day and night and have the net metering counted against my day usage? My electricity provider offers 2 plans, a flat rate plan and a time of use plan. In the time of use plan, they would charge me 1.16 cents during off peak.

Also, my electric bill last time had 13 cents per kwh and then I would pay 10 more cents in delivery fees and stuff. Would those fees still persist? or would it count my meter backwards as though I didn't use the electricity?

[bonaire]

Check my pictures here. We did the ground mount on about the same plane as the roof so it wouldn't shade but I could have pushed the ground mount back further a foot or so.

http://bonairevolt.blogspot.com/2012/12/solar-pv-project.html

If your overhang is an issue, you could perhaps use microinverters and mount your modules in a landscape format (ask us or your installer about why). Might handle the height of summer sun.

[mesol]

Check my pictures here. We did the ground mount on about the same plane as the roof so it wouldn't shade but I could have pushed the ground mount back further a foot or so.

http://bonairevolt.blogspot.com/2012/12/solar-pv-project.html

If your overhang is an issue, you could perhaps use microinverters and mount your modules in a landscape format (ask us or your installer about why). Might handle the height of summer sun.

Well the shade would depend on what direction the roof is. If the roof is south, it generally would not shade. In my case the roof is south east which I think creates a risk of shading towards sunset. So it is a matter of how wide the shade is at the time in comparison to power generation.

Though I do notice your panels are hanging off the edge of roof. Is that allowed? or only the corners need clearance?

Wouldn't landscape put more risk of shading?

[bonaire]

Well the shade would depend on what direction the roof is. If the roof is south, it generally would not shade. In my case the roof is south east which I think creates a risk of shading towards sunset. So it is a matter of how wide the shade is at the time in comparison to power generation.

Though I do notice your panels are hanging off the edge of roof. Is that allowed? or only the corners need clearance?

Wouldn't landscape put more risk of shading?

My roof is a shed, not a residence. overhang is ok for something like that.
With microinverters and angles, only one shaded or a couple shaded should be fine. Good solar output is really only until about 3pm anyway. Output drops substantially through the afternoon. Everyone should be aware of the output graphs of solar.

Sunlight-2.JPG

[SunEagle]

Check my pictures here. We did the ground mount on about the same plane as the roof so it wouldn't shade but I could have pushed the ground mount back further a foot or so.

http://bonairevolt.blogspot.com/2012/12/solar-pv-project.html

If your overhang is an issue, you could perhaps use microinverters and mount your modules in a landscape format (ask us or your installer about why). Might handle the height of summer sun.

Impressive solar installation. Looks like you got a really solid set up there.

[indie]

Check my pictures here. We did the ground mount on about the same plane as the roof so it wouldn't shade but I could have pushed the ground mount back further a foot or so.

http://bonairevolt.blogspot.com/2012/12/solar-pv-project.html

If your overhang is an issue, you could perhaps use microinverters and mount your modules in a landscape format (ask us or your installer about why). Might handle the height of summer sun.

That is a beautiful system, and home, thanks for sharing!