Looking for advice on getting solar panels done in NY

[mesol]

Hi guys, one of the things I wanted to get done this year was get solar panels installed. Probably the best time to get it too since I hear the rebates might be expiring or something and don't know if they will be renewed next year. I live in NY.

I have not gotten any quotes yet because I like to do my research and don't like it when I am talking with someone and I am like a clueless brick wall and have no clue about what they are talking about or what to ask. So before anything I want to get my research done.

My house uses around 12,000kwh a year (estimate), I was told that the best way to go about it is to install the max amount that my rebate covers

Is that the best way to go? I am thinking buying (from what I read buying is the best way to go) and grid tied. I am also hearing sunpower panels are the way to go? or are there better options?

So where should I start? What do I need to know?

How many kw do I need to get?

I see these rebates available:

-Up to $5,000 for solar-energy systems, and 25 percent of system cost (limited to 10kw)
-$1.50 per watt DC up to 40 percent of cost after tax credits. Total can't exceed dollar limits depending on the type of installation( A bit confused on this one, some places say 110% of previous year and $1750 per kw with limit of $12500. others places say $10500 and $1.50 per watt )
-And 30% federal


Am I looking at a 7kw system to maximize the incentives? or an 8.33kw system? or should I go for more?

Are there any downsides/risks? insurance?

Any help to get me started would be appreciated.

Should I also consider solar thermal? (currently using NG)

[russ]

What is your zip code? Here is a link to PV Watts to allow you to get a better feel for production potential

If you have natural gas for water heating it is very unlikely that solar thermal will do anything except be more costly.

[J.P.M.]

Hi guys, one of the things I wanted to get done this year was get solar panels installed. Probably the best time to get it too since I hear the rebates might be expiring or something and don't know if they will be renewed next year. I live in NY.

I have not gotten any quotes yet because I like to do my research and don't like it when I am talking with someone and I am like a clueless brick wall and have no clue about what they are talking about or what to ask. So before anything I want to get my research done.

My house uses around 12,000kwh a year (estimate), I was told that the best way to go about it is to install the max amount that my rebate covers

Is that the best way to go? I am thinking buying (from what I read buying is the best way to go) and grid tied. I am also hearing sunpower panels are the way to go? or are there better options?

So where should I start? What do I need to know?

How many kw do I need to get?

I see these rebates available:

-Up to $5,000 for solar-energy systems, and 25 percent of system cost (limited to 10kw)
-$1.50 per watt DC up to 40 percent of cost after tax credits. Total can't exceed dollar limits depending on the type of installation( A bit confused on this one, some places say 110% of previous year and $1750 per kw with limit of $12500. others places say $10500 and $1.50 per watt )
-And 30% federal


Am I looking at a 7kw system to maximize the incentives? or an 8.33kw system? or should I go for more?

Are there any downsides/risks? insurance?

Any help to get me started would be appreciated.

Should I also consider solar thermal? (currently using NG)

I'd consider a fruitful start by spending a couple of hrs. searching threads on this and other forums. Many of your questions have been discussed at length already, some, IMO, with interesting outcomes. Then, as a kickoff:
- Sunpower is good stuff, but there is an honest and I believe sincere difference of opinion with respect to cost effectiveness of Sunpower equipment. Opinions and situations vary.
- Learn how your electric bill is constructed.
- Learn to apply the fundamentals of financial analysis to solar energy systems.
- Take your time and don't be rushed.
- As you allude, with vendors, try to know the answers before you ask the questions.

[inetdog]

- As you allude, with vendors, try to know the answers before you ask the questions.

Or at least know the answers to some of the questions so that you can evaluate those answers you do not already know.

[J.P.M.]

Or at least know the answers to some of the questions so that you can evaluate those answers you do not already know.

When I would interview people with an eye toward perhaps hiring them, I asked the technical type questions, not to get information, but to see what they knew. I usually had the answers to those questions. Similarly, I've never asked a vendor a technical question I wasn't pretty sure I had the answer to. Cuts down on the B.S. some. Got surprised once in a while when I learned I was wrong however.

[russ]

A rule in India - Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to - you will be lied to. It is just part of life there.

[mesol]

What is your zip code? Here is a link to PV Watts to allow you to get a better feel for production potential

If you have natural gas for water heating it is very unlikely that solar thermal will do anything except be more costly.

11234, I also don't see any links to PV Watts...hmm..I do see one in the stickies but it says it is discontinued at end of 2013 and redirects me to a beta version which is down. I can access it by clicking the X button but it for some reason keeps insisting I live in new jersey.


@J.P.M - I was kind of hoping on at least a start, because to be honest I don't have a clue what to even search for. I clicked on the stickies but none of them provide anything as far as getting started with the exception of PV Watts which is acting weird for me.

Edit: Also russ, someone pm'd me and it doesn't let me respond to them because I do not have enough posts :/

[russ]

PV Watts - now they want an address - a city and state seems to be adequate

http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/

[mesol]

PV Watts - now they want an address - a city and state seems to be adequate

http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/

Based on the data (assuming I entered everything correctly), I get 8000kwh from a 7kw panel which would cover 75% of my usage. With a cost of 0.07 per kwh. Any more than that and it seems the rebates fall off.

How close can I place the panels to the edge of the roof? And will things in the middle of the roof like pipe sticking out be an issue?

[russ]

From PV Watts for zip code 11234 using a .83 derate factor for a 1kW DC system

RESULTS

January	3.17	85	17.77
February	4.17	100	20.88
March	4.57	117	24.38
April	5.26	126	26.27
May	5.31	128	26.70
June	5.78	131	27.34
July	5.64	129	27.06
August	5.52	128	26.83
September	5.06	116	24.35
October	4.48	111	23.12
November	2.90	71	14.92
December	2.85	75	15.58
Annual	4.56	1,317	$ 275

Find A Local Installer Download Results: Monthly | Hourly
Caution: Photovoltaic system performance predictions calculated by PVWatts® include many inherent assumptions and uncertainties and do not reflect variations between PV technologies nor site-specific characteristics except as represented by PVWatts® inputs. For example, PV modules with better performance are not differentiated within PVWatts® from lesser performing modules. Similarly, the “Energy Value” column simply multiplies the utility-average electricity price by production. Complex utility rates and financing can significantly impact the energy value. See Help for additional guidance.

Requested Location	BROOKLYN NY
Weather Data Source	NEW YORK CITY, NY (TMY2)
Latitude	40.78° N
Longitude	73.97° W
DC Rating	1 kW
DC to AC Derate Factor	.83
Array Type	Fixed (open rack)
Array Tilt	40.7°
Array Azimuth	180°
Average Cost of Electricity Purchased from Utility	0.21 $/kWh
Cost of Electricity Generated by System	0.23 $/kWh

These values can be compared to get an idea of the cost-effectiveness of this system. However, system costs, system financing options (including 3rd party ownership) and complex utility rates can significantly change the relative value of the PV system.

[mesol]

I would like to point out that the best option I have as far as my roof goes is south east, not south. Though what does 1kw tell me exactly, how much it would generate per kw? The question comes down to if it is worth it past 7kw as after that tax credits fall off. 7kw would cover 75% of my usage. To get full coverage I would probably need a 10kw panel. But even without price that would be impossible as based on the map provided the max I can fit assuming edge to edge and 20% premium panels is about 8.9kw.

Also, any reason why AC to DC is 0.83 instead of the default 0.77?

[J.P.M.]

I would like to point out that the best option I have as far as my roof goes is south east, not south. Though what does 1kw tell me exactly, how much it would generate per kw? The question comes down to if it is worth it past 7kw as after that tax credits fall off. 7kw would cover 75% of my usage. To get full coverage I would probably need a 10kw panel. But even without price that would be impossible as based on the map provided the max I can fit assuming edge to edge and 20% premium panels is about 8.9kw.

Also, any reason why AC to DC is 0.83 instead of the default 0.77?

I mean no disrespect, but I'd suggest that after you read a bunch of posts here you get two books, one about solar energy and one about financial analysis and continue your education. From your questions it seems to me that you're like someone trying to get get into an elevator that's already gone up a floor. Do a little hard work and climb the stairs to catch up before you attempt to climb on the elevator. It's a free country, but a few bucks and time spent will pay big dividends. Tools like PV Watts can be valuable, but can also be a mine field for the uneducated. You have a lot to learn. Without something of the basics you may waste time and money - yours and others.

[Ian S]

I would like to point out that the best option I have as far as my roof goes is south east, not south. Though what does 1kw tell me exactly, how much it would generate per kw? The question comes down to if it is worth it past 7kw as after that tax credits fall off. 7kw would cover 75% of my usage. To get full coverage I would probably need a 10kw panel. But even without price that would be impossible as based on the map provided the max I can fit assuming edge to edge and 20% premium panels is about 8.9kw.

Also, any reason why AC to DC is 0.83 instead of the default 0.77?

What the PV analysis presented by Russ shows is that for every kW of nameplate power of a system installed around your location with the parameters shown, you could expect around 1317 kWh annual production. If your roof faces southeast, you can change the azimuth to something like 135 deg and redo the calculation. In any event what you wind up with is an annual production number; how that translates into $$ saved will depend on your cost of electricity, rate structure (e.g. time-of-use, summer/winter, etc.), your usage patterns, and how the utility credits you for your production i.e. net metering, annual true-up, etc.

You will generally get the most bang for your buck if you minimize your net cost (after incentives) per kW of nameplate power of the system. When incentives are capped, there will be a sweet spot for that bang for your buck, above which it will be less. In other words, you can put in a larger system but you will get less bang for the buck. That also means it will almost certainly take longer for payback of your investment. I would also caution that utilities nationwide are attempting to limit the benefits of rooftop solar and they are doing this by moving away from net metering and drastically cutting what they will pay for over production. Just as an example, my system produces about 2/3 of my annual usage, yet because of the rate structure, I wind up with excess production at year's end which is essentially donated to the utility. Utilities are also mulling set monthly fees on rooftop solar customers so that you will never have a zero monthly bill.

The derate factor of 0.83 is used because that is a more real-life based number than the default 0.77 used by PV Watts.

There is a lot to consider but with the solar incentives in NY, solar can really pay off for you. Good luck!

[bonaire]

Different parts of NY have different cloud-cover due to the lakes effect of creating clouds. So, output can vary somewhat widely.

I am in SE PA, not far from NY. My 8.1 KW array put out about 11.4+ MWh since it was installed mid-December, 2012. I expect an average of about 10.5 MWh for each of the first 10 years, give or take. Depending on your clouds, you can use a 1.2 to 1.3 multiplier if you have good sun in NY. So, a 10KW array may put out 12-13 MWh a year.

There are fire codes for how close modules can be to the edge of the roof. NYSERDA has "rich" incentives now (much more than other states have had in the past) so NY is a prime target of solar PV installers and may have slightly higher pricing than when incentives are lower. For example, in Maryland, incentives seem to be low and installer/member here named Naptown says he can do systems well below $4/Watt installed. In incentive rich states like CA and NY, you would be quoted $4.50 or higher. Some areas of CA are $5.50/Watt. This is called "working the system" and taking advantage of the incentives while the homeowner says "hey, I am getting big incentives so overpaying doesn't hurt that badly".

Don't pay more than $4/Watt when you buy *or* lease. Determine fair market value of the system and how they quote you on it. Make sure someone isn't using you to make above-fair-market value money for them.

Pay cash for a system. If you are taking loans out for Solar PV, you are risking money that may put you at risk. Many HELOC loans are variant based on the base interest rates and can float up. You may end up paying more than you save. So, hopefully going green is in your family budget ongoing.

I have Solar. I also drive an EV. I can see that there still is a lot of working the system going on and also see the oversized NY state NYSERDA incentives paying way more than is equitable and will run out long before enough people can benefit from it. It would be better to pay an incentive of .50/Watt rather than 1.15/Watt. Over twice the installed base could be established. My son's college is doing a 3 MW array near campus (they are buying into a PPA agreement) that may not be fully incented by NYSERDA (due to its size). All that going to one single installation versus spread to many families who might be able to take advantage of it. And solar really does very little to help people who are low-income who really could benefit from lowered electric bills.

Program runs through late 2015 but has some TBD aspects to the current funding.

http://www.nyserda.ny.gov/Funding-Opportunities/Current-Funding-Opportunities/PON-2112-Solar-PV-Program-Financial-Incentives.aspx

[Antec Energy]

Different parts of NY have different cloud-cover due to the lakes effect of creating clouds. So, output can vary somewhat widely.

I am in SE PA, not far from NY. My 8.1 KW array put out about 11.4+ MWh since it was installed mid-December, 2012. I expect an average of about 10.5 MWh for each of the first 10 years, give or take. Depending on your clouds, you can use a 1.2 to 1.3 multiplier if you have good sun in NY. So, a 10KW array may put out 12-13 MWh a year.

There are fire codes for how close modules can be to the edge of the roof. NYSERDA has "rich" incentives now (much more than other states have had in the past) so NY is a prime target of solar PV installers and may have slightly higher pricing than when incentives are lower. For example, in Maryland, incentives seem to be low and installer/member here named Naptown says he can do systems well below $4/Watt installed. In incentive rich states like CA and NY, you would be quoted $4.50 or higher. Some areas of CA are $5.50/Watt. This is called "working the system" and taking advantage of the incentives while the homeowner says "hey, I am getting big incentives so overpaying doesn't hurt that badly".

Don't pay more than $4/Watt when you buy *or* lease. Determine fair market value of the system and how they quote you on it. Make sure someone isn't using you to make above-fair-market value money for them.

Pay cash for a system. If you are taking loans out for Solar PV, you are risking money that may put you at risk. Many HELOC loans are variant based on the base interest rates and can float up. You may end up paying more than you save. So, hopefully going green is in your family budget ongoing.

I have Solar. I also drive an EV. I can see that there still is a lot of working the system going on and also see the oversized NY state NYSERDA incentives paying way more than is equitable and will run out long before enough people can benefit from it. It would be better to pay an incentive of .50/Watt rather than 1.15/Watt. Over twice the installed base could be established. My son's college is doing a 3 MW array near campus (they are buying into a PPA agreement) that may not be fully incented by NYSERDA (due to its size). All that going to one single installation versus spread to many families who might be able to take advantage of it. And solar really does very little to help people who are low-income who really could benefit from lowered electric bills.

Program runs through late 2015 but has some TBD aspects to the current funding.

http://www.nyserda.ny.gov/Funding-Op...ncentives.aspx

As the Electrical Engineer for an Elite SunPower Dealer I think your projections of output may be a little high. The system I would design for the OP would probably be 32 SPR327NE-WHT-D panels if they would fit. This would just about zero out his usage. Andy