Working on Solar for TX - Initial Quotes coming in

[Sunking]

Real simple fact that is very easy to look up and verify Ian is peak energy use by residence is 5 to 10 pm when your panels are not producing power. You can squawk all you want but no one is buying it, so give it up.

The whole point of any Grid Tied system is to generate all your daily energy requirement in those very short 3 to 5 hours around noon to store up as credits with the POCO to be used for the 20 or so hours the system is not generating energy. If you do not understand that you are dumber than I thought.

[Ian S]

Real simple fact that is very easy to look up and verify Ian is peak energy use by residence is 5 to 10 pm when your panels are not producing power. You can squawk all you want but no one is buying it, so give it up.

The whole point of any Grid Tied system is to generate all your daily energy requirement in those very short 3 to 5 hours around noon to store up as credits with the POCO to be used for the 20 or so hours the system is not generating energy. If you do not understand that you are dumber than I thought.

I provide actual data, you provide ad hominem attacks. Enough said.

[Ian S]

I have no proof that most of the people with pv systems "sell" more than they use but based on my experience of electrical usage it seems pretty plausible that your case is the exception.

It may well be but what I object to are broad sweeping claims that actually don't apply in every case. We don't know the situation of the O.P. with any certainty. To claim he's taking a huge risk in getting a grid tied system is simply unsubstantiated. In fact, it's quite possible nowadays to select the times when major energy hungry appliances and pool systems run so it's quite possible to time shift a significant portion of your usage into the time when your solar is producing most of its energy. Furthermore, the argument of net-metering vs SunCredit ignores the fact that the O.P. is getting a huge upfront payment for his system. You have to incorporate that into determining how big a risk SunCredit would be for him in a financial sense. It could double his payback time and still be a good deal.

[SunEagle]

It may well be but what I object to are broad sweeping claims that actually don't apply in every case. We don't know the situation of the O.P. with any certainty. To claim he's taking a huge risk in getting a grid tied system is simply unsubstantiated. In fact, it's quite possible nowadays to select the times when major energy hungry appliances and pool systems run so it's quite possible to time shift a significant portion of your usage into the time when your solar is producing most of its energy. Furthermore, the argument of net-metering vs SunCredit ignores the fact that the O.P. is getting a huge upfront payment for his system. You have to incorporate that into determining how big a risk SunCredit would be for him in a financial sense. It could double his payback time and still be a good deal.

You are right. The payback will depend on what the actual cost is for his system after all rebates as well as the deference between what a kWh cost him and what he can "sell" it back to the Utility.

I am presuming that for most people (like me) the main reason to go with a pv system is to save money. Each person has to weigh the pro and cons of that system and then decide how long it is worth waiting to get into the black.

To me based on what I know the Texas electric rates doesn't make economical sense to install a pv system due to a very long ROI. Of course it is all based on the actual installed cost less the total rebates and excess energy kWh savings.

Here is Florida there are technically no Utility or State rebate (all of them have been exhausted or stopped) and while there is the Fed Tax incentive there isn't any legal way for me to sell my excess generated kWh. So my pay back will be way beyond the time I plan on living in my home. It just isn't worth it to me yet.

[Sunking]

I provide actual data, you provide ad hominem attacks. Enough said.

Hogwash,. You are in denial of facts. It is simple 5th grade math even us Americans can grasp. I guess Canadian math is not taught.

[Naptown]

Real simple fact that is very easy to look up and verify Ian is peak energy use by residence is 5 to 10 pm when your panels are not producing power. You can squawk all you want but no one is buying it, so give it up.

The whole point of any Grid Tied system is to generate all your daily energy requirement in those very short 3 to 5 hours around noon to store up as credits with the POCO to be used for the 20 or so hours the system is not generating energy.

The portion in red is actually true in 99 44/100 % of all homes.
Ian
Have you tracked the incoming from the grid in KWH per hour and the export in KWH and tied them to a time of day?
In other words when are you exporting and when are you importing and how much and when on a daily basis?

[inetdog]

The whole point of any Grid Tied system is to generate all your daily energy requirement in those very short 3 to 5 hours around noon to store up as credits with the POCO to be used for the 20 or so hours the system is not generating energy.

The portion in red is actually true in 99 44/100 % of all homes.
Ian
Have you tracked the incoming from the grid in KWH per hour and the export in KWH and tied them to a time of day?
In other words when are you exporting and when are you importing and how much and when on a daily basis?

When you combine TOU with Net Metering, you have a more complicated optimization process than with just straight Net Metering, or with sellback at wholesale rate.

With TOU, instead of running your heavy loads during mid-day whey your panels are producing most, you are actually better off moving your heavy loads to off-peak hours, just as you would with TOU and no PV. That way you buy low and sell high. I do not know of any residential metering plans that care about the maximum power draw, just tiered rates based on total usage (within a time period.)
If your heavy loads are A/C, then you do not have a lot of choice on when you will be using them, but things like cooking, drying clothes and using electrically heated water are usually fairly easy to time shift.

[Ian S]

The portion in red is actually true in 99 44/100 % of all homes.
Ian
Have you tracked the incoming from the grid in KWH per hour and the export in KWH and tied them to a time of day?
In other words when are you exporting and when are you importing and how much and when on a daily basis?

I have not done that in detail but could I suppose from the data I collect. Not sure of the point though as the utility does that in summary form on my monthly bill. The net metering calculation is done on the bill not before hand. A quick glance at the demand data for last Friday shows that from about 9:00 AM until 3:00 PM I am taking nothing from the grid. Presumably that's when I'm sending a solar excess over what I'm using back to the grid. After 3:00 usage climbs from zero quickly and peaks between 9 PM and 10 PM. Keep in mind that the air conditioning is running 24 hr a day at this time of year and will pretty much through September. As soon as the sun comes up, heating is fast and we'll stay above 100F until 9-10 PM. In a month or so, night time temperatures won't get below 90F.

[Sunking]

The portion in red is actually true in 99 44/100 % of all homes.

IanS must be one of the less than 1% of us normal folks sitting in an Ivory Tower with GREEN sun glasses. He cannot understand simple logic.

[Naptown]

I have not done that in detail but could I suppose from the data I collect. Not sure of the point though as the utility does that in summary form on my monthly bill. The net metering calculation is done on the bill not before hand. A quick glance at the demand data for last Friday shows that from about 9:00 AM until 3:00 PM I am taking nothing from the grid. Presumably that's when I'm sending a solar excess over what I'm using back to the grid. After 3:00 usage climbs from zero quickly and peaks between 9 PM and 10 PM. Keep in mind that the air conditioning is running 24 hr a day at this time of year and will pretty much through September. As soon as the sun comes up, heating is fast and we'll stay above 100F until 9-10 PM. In a month or so, night time temperatures won't get below 90F.

What you are seeing is precisely what Dereck is talking about.
Under net metering it is no big deal
But with the loss of that buying and selling at the same rate the payback and numbers change.

[Ian S]

I do not know of any residential metering plans that care about the maximum power draw, just tiered rates based on total usage (within a time period.)

Actually, my rate plan prior to solar did incorporate a demand factor in addition to TOU. Basically they measure your demand in kW for each hour of the peak time periods in the month and then pick the highest value for the month. That number then gets multiplied about $10 in the off-season and $13.50 in the summer to arrive at the demand charge. Of course your cost per kWh is significantly lower. It's a complicated system and if you're careless, you can easily get burned but I was always able to get the lowest cost that way. Interestingly, the new smartmeter still keeps track of that demand figure although it's not used in my bill.

[Ian S]

What you are seeing is precisely what Dereck is talking about.
Under net metering it is no big deal
But with the loss of that buying and selling at the same rate the payback and numbers change.

I don't deny that the numbers will change if you switch away from net-metering. Clearly it will cost solar customers more and I'm going to fight that tooth and nail when they try that bait and switch here in Arizona. But Sunking made a blanket claim in an effort to browbeat and scare the O.P. and to preserve the fiction that solar never pays in Texas. It clearly can and does. Even if the utility adopts SunCredit, it will only lengthen the time for payback and of course the O.P. can alleviate the effects by timeshifting a significant chunk of his energy use.

[Sunking]

But Sunking made a blanket claim in an effort to browbeat and scare the O.P. and to preserve the fiction that solar never pays in Texas. It clearly can and does. Even if the utility adopts SunCredit, it will only lengthen the time for payback and off course the O.P. can alleviate the effects by timeshifting a significant chunk of his energy use.

You are full of crap and in denial. TX is not AZ or worse CA or Canada. In TX there is no NET METERING LAWS period. No utility or any biz is is going to give away money unless forced to by law. Is that too hard for your socialist mind to understand?

You lost the argument, get over it and move on the AZ Wind & Sun forum.

[mm01]

You are full of crap and in denial. TX is not AZ or worse CA or Canada. In TX there is no NET METERING LAWS period. No utility or any biz is is going to give away money unless forced to by law. Is that too hard for your socialist mind to understand?

You lost the argument, get over it and move on the AZ Wind & Sun forum.

Try again. I'm happy to read facts and hard numbers. The only "hard" numbers you've provided are from the FAQ.pdf posted on the CPS website for their proposed "solar credit system". You also claimed, incorrectly, that CPS does not use net metering. As of June 24th, 2013 CPS still uses a net metering system. The "Sun Credit" rate of 5.6cent you keep harping on was a proposed rate. Because of all the negative feedback, CPS has withdrawn the "Sun Credit" payment proposal for further review. If you have more up-to-date information, please do provide a link to it.

As to your other points re: feeding surplus to the grid at certain times of day, I'm sure you're right for the vast, vast majority of users. So yes, we could be talking about the value of solar being fed to the grid. Many, Many debates exist on what that value is of course. Wholesale? Retail? VOST like Austin does? Something else? None of this can be added to the conversation right now however because we're still in Net-Metering. When that changes, so will the conversation.

You can't "win" an argument without doing some basic things, one of which is defining what constitutes a "good investment" in home solar. For one person, a payback of less than 5 years a 25 year net profit of $35,000 might be the "Winner". For others, a 10 year payback with lower long term positive cash flow might be a ok. I had a quote that would have got my payback down below 4 years but opted for the Sunpower panels for other reasons. What's a "good investment" for you?

I looked into CPS Rates and Texas rates in general. While I'm no industry insider, several news sources said CPS was planing on asking for a rate increase in 2014 and many articles discussed the Texas grid being so stressed during summer peak (and even winter peak) usage that energy costs were certain to be higher in the future. Happy to listen to why this isn't true.

Let's all take the high road, add to the collective knowledge and conversation and provide real data and numbers.

[SunEagle]

Try again. I'm happy to read facts and hard numbers. The only "hard" numbers you've provided are from the FAQ.pdf posted on the CPS website for their proposed "solar credit system". You also claimed, incorrectly, that CPS does not use net metering. As of June 24th, 2013 CPS still uses a net metering system. The "Sun Credit" rate of 5.6cent you keep harping on was a proposed rate. Because of all the negative feedback, CPS has withdrawn the "Sun Credit" payment proposal for further review. If you have more up-to-date information, please do provide a link to it.

As to your other points re: feeding surplus to the grid at certain times of day, I'm sure you're right for the vast, vast majority of users. So yes, we could be talking about the value of solar being fed to the grid. Many, Many debates exist on what that value is of course. Wholesale? Retail? VOST like Austin does? Something else? None of this can be added to the conversation right now however because we're still in Net-Metering. When that changes, so will the conversation.

You can't "win" an argument without doing some basic things, one of which is defining what constitutes a "good investment" in home solar. For one person, a ROI of less than 5 years a 25 net profit of $35,000 might be the "Winner". For others, a 10 year ROI with lower long term positive cash flow might be a ok. I had a quote that would have got my ROI down below 4 years but opted for the Sunpower panels for other reasons. What's a "good investment" for you?

I looked into CPS Rates and Texas rates in general. While I'm no industry insider, several news sources said CPS was planing on asking for a rate increase in 2014 and many articles discussed the Texas grid being so stressed during summer peak (and even winter peak) usage that energy costs were certain to be higher in the future. Happy to listen to why this isn't true.

Let's all take the high road, add to the collective knowledge and conversation and provide real data and numbers.

Well I am looking forward to your report on what the final cost is and the expected pay back. I hope it works out for you and I am actually a little jealous that you have the opportunity to install a system that may pay for itself in 10 years or less.