Working on Solar for TX - Initial Quotes coming in

[bonaire]

But only due to the incentives. You guys wouldn't believe it is a smart move to do the system if the incentive was not there. Even with federal 30% only, it is still a long ROI. The local incentive is hard to pass up but it seems over sized for what the system does. Maybe the DoE gave them a grant which they take a cut of and then pass on some of it to system owners? I doubt Texas electric prices will rise much in the next five years. Grid suppliers are getting bid down on generation prices into 2017.

Here in pa, we have renewed the sunshine program for a while. I didn't expect it but ended up getting a check in 2013 for a share of the late 2012 install. I didn't expect it and went into the install with a 12-13 year ROI expectation. I actually made back the net price of the array buying PowerOne stock and holding into their buyout offer by ABB, so that's how you can really make money, through smart and tactical investing. I was blessed by my solar installer choosing power one inverters as I had not heard of them prior to the choice.

[mm01]

But only due to the incentives. You guys wouldn't believe it is a smart move to do the system if the incentive was not there. Even with federal 30% only, it is still a long ROI. The local incentive is hard to pass up but it seems over sized for what the system does. Maybe the DoE gave them a grant which they take a cut of and then pass on some of it to system owners? I doubt Texas electric prices will rise much in the next five years. Grid suppliers are getting bid down on generation prices into 2017.

Here in pa, we have renewed the sunshine program for a while. I didn't expect it but ended up getting a check in 2013 for a share of the late 2012 install. I didn't expect it and went into the install with a 12-13 year ROI expectation. I actually made back the net price of the array buying PowerOne stock and holding into their buyout offer by ABB, so that's how you can really make money, through smart and tactical investing. I was blessed by my solar installer choosing power one inverters as I had not heard of them prior to the choice.

Agreed, without the Utility Rebate it would be a much longer ROI. The cost of a kWh in TX is MUCH different than CA.

With the CURRENT setup however, as an individual it makes sense. Broad Scope and without subsidies, the broader debate is much more murky.

[Ian S]

But only due to the incentives. You guys wouldn't believe it is a smart move to do the system if the incentive was not there.

Well, duh! Of course you have to consider the incentive. But the original conventional wisdom was a blanket claim that residential solar doesn't pay in Texas. It clearly does at least in some parts.

[Sunking]

Well, duh! Of course you have to consider the incentive. But the original conventional wisdom was a blanket claim that residential solar doesn't pay in Texas. It clearly does at least in some parts.

If he is only getting 5.6 cents for excess and paying 9.23 CPS is the one laughing all the way to the bank. Most of what he generates during the day is going out on the grid which he get the 5.6 cents credit. Then during his peak use after the sun is setting he is now buying it back at 9.3 cent.

And FWIW electricity is not goin gup in TX. It is expected to go even lower for the next 5 years as Natural Gas prices are still falling. Since 2008 here in TX state average was 13.1 cents. Today 9.6 cents. I pay 8.9. There is no Net Metering Laws in TX other than Austin. No utility is required to even let you connect. Most do not. Some do and those that do pay wholesale for what you generate and sell to them, and charge full retail for what you buy back. That is the way it should be nation wide.

States that do have Net Metering are mandated by Law to force utilities pay and charge the same price. What most people do not realize the states also allow the utilities to artificially inflate the electric rates on everyone else to make up for the losses.

[mm01]

If he is only getting 5.6 cents for excess and paying 9.23 CPS is the one laughing all the way to the bank. Most of what he generates during the day is going out on the grid which he get the 5.6 cents credit. Then during his peak use after the sun is setting he is now buying it back at 9.3 cent.

And FWIW electricity is not goin gup in TX. It is expected to go even lower for the next 5 years as Natural Gas prices are still falling. Since 2008 here in TX state average was 13.1 cents. Today 9.6 cents. I pay 8.9. There is no Net Metering Laws in TX other than Austin. No utility is required to even let you connect. Most do not. Some do and those that do pay wholesale for what you generate and sell to them, and charge full retail for what you buy back. That is the way it should be nation wide.

States that do have Net Metering are mandated by Law to force utilities pay and charge the same price. What most people do not realize the states also allow the utilities to artificially inflate the electric rates on everyone else to make up for the losses.

Just to reiterate - The PROPOSED CPS Sun Credit system has NOT been implemented. Net Metering is SOP here. I SUSPECT things will change in the future but likely with a grandfather clause for existing systems. The residential solar numbers here are quite small so CPS is right (from their perspective) to try and get out in front of things before the user base becomes too large.

This debate is nothing new as the utilities have been dealing with energy conservation measures for a LONG TIME. Every CFL or LED Bulb or high SEER A/C system etc etc reduces their income base. Weather decoupling or other changes are needed to make things "fair", change is inevitable.

[Sunking]

The PROPOSED CPS Sun Credit system has NOT been implemented.

I do work for them and that is not what their executive management is say or what is posted on their Web Site. You are taking one heck of a risk. There is no Law or Regulation to force CPS to do anything. There is no shortage of energy in TX. It would be a very foolish business decision for a electric utility to pay Net Metering if not dragged kicking and screaming by mandated law. They can buy all the cheap 4-cent Kwh from any generation plan tin TX. Why would they want to pay you retail when they can buy wholesale?

Think about. Two gas station next to each other. One sells gas for $3/gal, th eother $6/gal. Which one do you buy and why?

[mm01]

I do work for them and that is not what their executive management is say or what is posted on their Web Site. You are taking one heck of a risk. There is no Law or Regulation to force CPS to do anything. There is no shortage of energy in TX. It would be a very foolish business decision for a electric utility to pay Net Metering if not dragged kicking and screaming by mandated law. They can buy all the cheap 4-cent Kwh from any generation plan tin TX. Why would they want to pay you retail when they can buy wholesale?

Think about. Two gas station next to each other. One sells gas for $3/gal, th eother $6/gal. Which one do you buy and why?

Actually, the CPS Website says "The SunCredit proposal is currently on hold until 2014 for further review."

Link here: http://www.cpsenergy.com/Services/Ge...edit/index.asp

I actually agree with you that FORCING the utility to pay me retail rates for my SURPLUS pushed out into the grid is less than an ideal situation for the Utility. However, your gas station analogy doesn't encompass the whole situation. My, and the vast majority of other residential solar installs, will only cover a PORTION of my total electric bill for the month. It will be a RARE occurrence when our systems are acting as a SUPPLY SOURCE to the Grid. For the most part, solar simply acts as an energy saving measure reducing how much RETAIL POWER I will need to purchase. At the meter, this is no different than installing LED bulbs, adding more insulation or turning the temp on my A/C up. The way the Sun "credit" program was proposed, it would essentially penalize me for saving energy.

It will be interesting to see what solutions they come up with. I don't consider it a big risk. My ROI might stretch out a bit more but it's extremely unlikely I'll loose money on it. I consulted with several VERY knowledgeable people on the issues before moving forward.

[russ]

LIKE TO SHOUT FOR EMPHASIS DO YOU?

Just be normal - we can all read to some extent.

You are using their system for time shifting - nothing wrong with the utility paying wholesale.

[bonaire]

I do believe that future smart metered smart grid systems will indeed offer to buy renewables for wholesale rates. So, the CPS proposal will eventually happen once cost of renewables hits the cost of scale levels needed to make it attractive without requiring huge incentives to install. That will happen once wholesale electricity rises in future years. Maybe 2018 or so. Until then, wholesale rates will remain low. Except in CA and HI.

[Ian S]

It will be interesting to see what solutions they come up with. I don't consider it a big risk. My ROI might stretch out a bit more but it's extremely unlikely I'll loose money on it. I consulted with several VERY knowledgeable people on the issues before moving forward.

The SunCredit proposal was their opening position. What will eventually be implemented will be better for net metered solar customers than that. Most of what you over-produce is probably going to your nearby neighbors so it's not quite the same grid usage as if the electricity were being obtained from out of state. However, those of us with net-metering do get a benefit of being able to "store" our over-production on the grid. A fair compromise might be to charge a penny or two per kWh for that benefit.

But you're right, no matter what the ultimate deal looks like, it's only going to extend your payback time a little. You're getting such a huge payment upfront that you really can't lose.

[Sunking]

It will be a RARE occurrence when our systems are acting as a SUPPLY SOURCE to the Grid.

Sir you are severely mistaken. Most of your production will go out to the GRID. CPS knows this. If you had Net Metering that would be no problem as it is simply a straight 1-for-1 credit that you bank to be used in the afternoon and night. You are selling a product for 5.6 cents per unit, and buying it at 9.6 cents per unit.

[Ian S]

Sir you are severely mistaken. Most of your production will go out to the GRID.

I just checked for my most recent billing period. From May 9 through June 8, my solar production totaled 1314 kWh. During the exact same time period, the amount I fed back into the grid was 450 kWh. That's barely over 1/3 of my production not anywhere near "most." You need to demonstrate with actual numbers that the situation someone like me and my house would face in San Antonio would be radically different in % of production fed back to the grid.

[bonaire]

Ian, what he's talking about is the instantaneous generation mid day. If you net metered by the hour and tracked the incoming and outgoing kWh per hour, most of your kWh produced would go to the grid. If you net meter now, your total put to the grid is say 900 and you take in 1000 from the grid for a net meter result of 100 bought from the grid. That is not taking into account the breakdown by hour.

With the proposed change, for example, during the hours of 10 and 2 pm for a day, you may make 20kWh and use 4kWh and sell 16kWh to the grid. So, with that, if their computers used smart meters to track the hourly flow of power, they could pay you wholesale for those 16 kWh and charge you retail for the amount used the rest of the day. That is what Sunking is talking about. It makes sense, long term, but is a disincentive for people buying systems today.

[Ian S]

Ian, what he's talking about is the instantaneous generation mid day. If you net metered by the hour and tracked the incoming and outgoing kWh per hour, most of your kWh produced would go to the grid. If you net meter now, your total put to the grid is say 900 and you take in 1000 from the grid for a net meter result of 100 bought from the grid. That is not taking into account the breakdown by hour.

With the proposed change, for example, during the hours of 10 and 2 pm for a day, you may make 20kWh and use 4kWh and sell 16kWh to the grid. So, with that, if their computers used smart meters to track the hourly flow of power, they could pay you wholesale for those 16 kWh and charge you retail for the amount used the rest of the day. That is what Sunking is talking about. It makes sense, long term, but is a disincentive for people buying systems today.

What I'm saying is that the claim that most of what is generated goes back to the grid is totally false in my case and unsubstantiated in San Antonio. I have a smart meter and it is always detecting the flow direction and quantity of electricity passing across my property boundary. Not hourly but instantaneously. I'm sure CPS uses a similar meter. And it keeps track of it all: total from APS, total peak (noon til 7 pm) from APS, total to grid from my solar system and total peak to grid from my solar system. But my solar production goes first to my house and that is not seen by APS at least not on that meter. So my bill reflects everything that crosses the border of my property whichever direction and if it's peak or off peak. The numbers I provided are real and show that 2/3 of my production is being used onsite. It is not seen by APS and would not be seen by CPS. Until Sunking can provide some actual numbers of a customer of CPS that shows differently, I'll take his claims with a grain of salt.

[SunEagle]

What I'm saying is that the claim that most of what is generated goes back to the grid is totally false in my case and unsubstantiated in San Antonio. I have a smart meter and it is always detecting the flow direction and quantity of electricity passing across my property boundary. Not hourly but instantaneously. I'm sure CPS uses a similar meter. And it keeps track of it all: total from APS, total peak (noon til 7 pm) from APS, total to grid from my solar system and total peak to grid from my solar system. But my solar production goes first to my house and that is not seen by APS at least not on that meter. So my bill reflects everything that crosses the border of my property whichever direction and if it's peak or off peak. The numbers I provided are real and show that 2/3 of my production is being used onsite. It is not seen by APS and would not be seen by CPS. Until Sunking can provide some actual numbers of a customer of CPS that shows differently, I'll take his claims with a grain of salt.

Ian. In your case it seems you use quite a bit of your generated energy but for the most part during the day most people are at work and there is very little energy used by the home.

Energy conscious people turn off every light and fan as well as adjust their thermostats to allow the temp to raise or lower a little depending on the time of year when they are not home. There is no reason to use anything.

While I do not have a pv system I track my daily electric use through a personal meter that collects data from the utility meter. I can tell you when people are not in the house the electric use goes down as opposed to when it is populated.

I have no proof that most of the people with pv systems "sell" more than they use but based on my experience of electrical usage it seems pretty plausible that your case is the exception.