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**KRenn** · 05-25-2013, 06:24 PM

I'll look through the quotes soon as I get a chance to actually sit down for a minute. You're in CPS territory correct? I'm assuming so, and in that case, you should realize, if you haven't already, that CPS treats incentives differently based on the installer, where they are located, whose territory they are in.....etc. There's also the onerous issue of HOA's which can cause frustration to no small extent depending on who your HOA is.

**mm01** · 05-25-2013, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by KRenn

I'll look through the quotes soon as I get a chance to actually sit down for a minute. You're in CPS territory correct? I'm assuming so, and in that case, you should realize, if you haven't already, that CPS treats incentives differently based on the installer, where they are located, whose territory they are in.....etc. There's also the onerous issue of HOA's which can cause frustration to no small extent depending on who your HOA is.

CPS Territory. Both installers are on CPSs list of approved solar contractors. Went through HOA docs and don't see any specific solar issues. My neighbor did a panel install 3 years back (standard Blue with bare aluminum Frame west western roof array clearly visible from road) and said there were clean energy rules in place for our HOA and solar - we'll see. My southern/western exposures are front/road side of home so LOOKS do play a role in my setup (Hence the black panels and Sunpower bias).

MM

**bonaire** · 05-25-2013, 09:28 PM

Crazy high utility subsidy.

With all the modules and multiple directions, consider doing two inverters for each direction or a big PowerOne Aurora inverter which has two MPPT controllers to support different voltages like you will see.

**mm01** · 06-20-2013, 10:21 PM

Update - Signed a contract this week. Final Stats:

System Power - 8.04kW
Annual Production Estimate - 11,457 kWh

24 Sunpower X21 335W Black Panels
2 SMA Sunnyboy 4000 TL-US with Backup Power Outlets (this is the new "Grid Down" feature) 4 MPPTs, one for each array.
eGauge Monitoring (Will likely add a few more sensors to monitor individual devices/circuits in home so maybe $250 more)

Total Cost: $34,732.80 ($4.32/W)
After Utility Rebate : $20,277.50
After Fed Tax Credit: $10,026.50 ($1.25/W)

Will update when install begins. Thanks to others for posting their quotes and comments - Helped guide me in my decisions.

**Ian S** · 06-21-2013, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by mm01

Update - Signed a contract this week. Final Stats:

System Power - 8.04kW
Annual Production Estimate - 11,457 kWh

24 Sunpower X21 335W Black Panels
2 SMA Sunnyboy 4000 TL-US with Backup Power Outlets (this is the new "Grid Down" feature) 4 MPPTs, one for each array.
eGauge Monitoring (Will likely add a few more sensors to monitor individual devices/circuits in home so maybe $250 more)

Total Cost: $34,732.80 ($4.32/W)
After Utility Rebate : $20,277.50
After Fed Tax Credit: $10,026.50 ($1.25/W)

Will update when install begins. Thanks to others for posting their quotes and comments - Helped guide me in my decisions.

Congrats on a great deal! Pretty much puts the lie to the conventional wisdom that residential solar is a bad investment in Texas.

**SunEagle** · 06-21-2013, 12:04 PM

Wow. That is a 41% reduction in cost due to the Utility incentives. That is incredible.

If it is true then Ian is correct it sure contradicts all other stories that solar pv in Texas is not worth the cost.

Hope it it all true. Good luck with your system.

**Sunking** · 06-21-2013, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by mm01

Total Cost: $34,732.80 ($4.32/W)
After Utility Rebate : $20,277.50
After Fed Tax Credit: $10,026.50 ($1.25/W)

Federal does not look right. I think Fed is applied after all rebates. So if CPS is giving you 20,277 leaves you a balance of $14,455.53. Fed credit would be .3 x $14,455.53 = $4336.59. Not the $10,026.50 you have listed. Even if th eFED does pay at full listed price, they will apply income tax on what the utility pays you in rebate, and on $20K will be around $4000 tax.

One other thing is CPI does not pay Net Metering, they call it Net Metering but it is not. They will pay you Wholesale of 5.6 cents per Kwh for any excess you generate, but charge you full retail for what you use from them of about 11-cents per Kwh. It is stated very clearly here. So you are going to have a monthly bill no matter what. It is a pretty clever marketing for CPI. They make money off your investment.

**Naptown** · 06-21-2013, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Sunking

Federal does not look right. I think Fed is applied after all rebates. So if CPS is giving you 20,277 leaves you a balance of $14,455.53. Fed credit would be .3 x $14,455.53 = $4336.59. Not the $10,026.50 you have listed. Even if th eFED does pay at full listed price, they will apply income tax on what the utility pays you in rebate, and on $20K will be around $4000 tax.

One other thing is CPI does not pay Net Metering, they call it Net Metering but it is not. They will pay you Wholesale of 5.6 cents per Kwh for any excess you generate, but charge you full retail for what you use from them of about 11-cents per Kwh. It is stated very clearly here. So you are going to have a monthly bill no matter what. It is a pretty clever marketing for CPI. They make money off your investment.

Federal is definately wrong. If the utility pays the contractor the basis for the credit is after the rebate or in your case about 6K
If they pay you directly then count on a 1099 which you will have to add to your income as taxable but you can take the 30% on the cost before rebate.
Which way you go really depends on your tax situation. If you pay more than 30% than take the rebate paid to the installer if you are under 30% take the check and 1099 paid directly to you.

**Sunking** · 06-21-2013, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Ian S

Pretty much puts the lie to the conventional wisdom that residential solar is a bad investment in Texas.

Does not change a thing if they only get wholesale on excess, pretty much wipes out any incentive. In reality he will only see his electric bill cut by about 50% or less. The only ones who will make money is the the installer and the power company buying his electricity at 5.6-cents per Kwh, and then selling it to his neighbor at 11-cents. Most of his generation will be between 10 in the morning to 2 or 3 in the afternoon when his usage is minimal. Most of what he generates is sold to the POCO at 5.6 cents. Then when they get home from work and school around 4 and put on the peak demand they buy back that electricity at 11-cents they generated and sold for 5.6 cents.

**Lomag** · 06-22-2013, 08:57 AM

So he will be net paying 5.4 cents per kwh during times when the solar is not generating and 0 during times when solar is generating versus 11 cents per kwh 24/7. Obviously true net-metering is ideal but hey that's not so bad. He's also starting out with an excellent cost per watt for SunPower. Plus given the huge install incentive from the utility, it makes it just as worth doing as in the north east, if not, even more worth it.

**bonaire** · 06-22-2013, 10:02 AM

What you are implying is that they have an hourly metering system that either credits or debits per hour. Is this true? Or is it simply his overage is bought at wholesale rates and there is none of the stuff Sunking implies? Net metering is buying overage at retail rates while you guys are saying his mid day sell is at wholesale and night time use is at retail. Who has that billing system in place yet? Or, is this an unsubstantiated assumption?

**mm01** · 06-22-2013, 10:51 AM

CPS PROPOSED the "Sun Credit" metering system this spring and stirred up an absolute sh*t storm locally and even got a fair amount of national attention. After several public meetings (which were extremely heated) CPS pulled their "Sun Credit" proposal to re-evaluate.

See Here: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/ene...it-4502970.php

Google "CPS Energy Sun Credit" and you'll get a slew of articles. The debate on the "equality" of net-metering is interesting.

I'm trying to "Get In" on the net-meetering and be grandfathered. Admittedly, there is some risk involved but long term, my thought was, at worst, I'll break even. I think that's highly unlikely mind you but, worst case, it will be "Green" and I'll break even.

- True, we'll get taxed on the Utility rebate as income if we take the Fed Credit on the ENTIRE cost. I do some consulting on the side and the work varies wildly so I consider that "Extra" tax the same as have a busy year.

- Current CPS rate is 9.23 Cents a kWh, not 11

- estimated break even time is 8 years for this system

In my mind, energy costs will continue to increase, even in "cheap energy" Texas. While today the payback is small, that benefit will only increase over time. Doubly so when things like TOU metering get here. It's evident that incentives will start to disappear or change so, again, it seemed wise to act sooner rather than later.

Here's the Financial Breakdown provided.

Payback Period - 7.62 Years
30-Year Investment Yield (IRR) - 13.86%
30-Year Net Present Value (NPV) - $ 20,417
Property Value Increase - $ 22,456

I could have opted for a less expensive panel (Suniva) and halved the payback period but, looking at it all long-term, Sunpower seemed the better choice for several reasons.

**Ian S** · 06-22-2013, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by bonaire

What you are implying is that they have an hourly metering system that either credits or debits per hour. Is this true? Or is it simply his overage is bought at wholesale rates and there is none of the stuff Sunking implies? Net metering is buying overage at retail rates while you guys are saying his mid day sell is at wholesale and night time use is at retail. Who has that billing system in place yet? Or, is this an unsubstantiated assumption?

My utility smart meter instantaneously detects when power is coming from the grid and going to the grid. My monthly bill shows total kWh taken from the grid and total kWh sent back to the grid. The net metering I have results in the amount that was sent to the grid being subtracted from the amount that was taken from the grid. The difference, if positive, is charged to me at the retail rate. If negative, the difference is banked for future use. It would be an easy change on the bill simply to charge me retail for the entire amount taken from the grid and pay me wholesale for the entire amount sent to the grid. In fact, the utilities here in Arizona are wanting to do the same thing that CPS is doing. The deal with CPS is not nearly as bad as Sunking would have you believe because he conveniently omitted the effect of the HUGE incentive provided upfront by CPS: nearly $15,000 for the O.P. If the O.P lived in Arizona under APS, the same system would have qualified for an $800 incentive.

CPS solar customers can alleviate the effect somewhat by shifting their electric usage as much as possible to the time of day when their solar production is highest.

**Ian S** · 06-22-2013, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by mm01

CPS PROPOSED the "Sun Credit" metering system this spring and stirred up an absolute sh*t storm locally and even got a fair amount of national attention. After several public meetings (which were extremely heated) CPS pulled their "Sun Credit" proposal to re-evaluate.

See Here: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/ene...it-4502970.php

Google "CPS Energy Sun Credit" and you'll get a slew of articles. The debate on the "equality" of net-metering is interesting.

I'm trying to "Get In" on the net-meetering and be grandfathered. Admittedly, there is some risk involved but long term, my thought was, at worst, I'll break even. I think that's highly unlikely mind you but, worst case, it will be "Green" and I'll break even.

- True, we'll get taxed on the Utility rebate as income if we take the Fed Credit on the ENTIRE cost. I do some consulting on the side and the work varies wildly so I consider that "Extra" tax the same as have a busy year.

- Current CPS rate is 9.23 Cents a kWh, not 11

- estimated break even time is 8 years for this system

In my mind, energy costs will continue to increase, even in "cheap energy" Texas. While today the payback is small, that benefit will only increase over time. Doubly so when things like TOU metering get here. It's evident that incentives will start to disappear or change so, again, it seemed wise to act sooner rather than later.

Here's the Financial Breakdown provided.

Payback Period - 7.62 Years
30-Year Investment Yield (IRR) - 13.86%
30-Year Net Present Value (NPV) - $ 20,417
Property Value Increase - $ 22,456

I could have opted for a less expensive panel (Suniva) and halved the payback period but, looking at it all long-term, Sunpower seemed the better choice for several reasons.

Thanks for clearing up the misinformation about the SunCredit system. I was led to believe it was already in place. You obviously did your homework and got an outstanding deal! My original assessment of it still holds:

Pretty much puts the lie to the conventional wisdom that residential solar is a bad investment in Texas.

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