Thoughts on this quote

[nomadh]

Good, then keep your investments healthy and rethink the whole solar/battery thing. Begin by getting more informed. Get a book: "Solar Power Your home for Dummies". ~ 25 buck +/- some at amazon/bookstores and disabuse yourself of the peddler hype and that of their media shills, or friends/neighbors who probably know less than you about the subject.

As others seem to suggest, consider skiping the batteries. You can buy a lot of propane and the equipment to burn it as well as a lot of help to run that equipment once in a while for a lot less than the $20+K an overpriced battery bank will cost.

Make arrangements for help during power interruptions and get a propane fired generator. Better, cheaper, more practical during power outages. Also, unless you plan on some effective method to remove snow from the arrays, plan for some reduced winter production from snow accumulations on the panels. That's one of the things solar peddlers either ignore or soft peddle.

Also, unless you have a lot of shade, and in spite of what the solar peddlers may tell you for reasons they aren't usually willing to share with their marks, I'd skip the micros as they violate the KISS principle big time - a lot of duplicate electronics that are sensitive to heat, cold and the elements in a harsh, exposed environment that's about as hot, cold and inaccessible as any in/on your home.

If cost effectiveness has any place in your consideration(s) to get PV, if you have so much shade such that micros are mandated (which is about the only semi logical reason for complicating things with micros), that calls into question the financial sense PV makes in the first place because less sun == less electricity production == less bang for the solar buck.

Welcome to the neighborhood.

You know the funny thing here is on my guitar forums almost never do the other members try and tell the new guy to NOT buy the guitar they are talking about.

[J.P.M.]

Mike 134, thanks for the link.
JPM you are correct SAM is a tad over my head and have no desire to kill as many brain cells required to learn how to use it. I am also in the middle of the "Dummies" book, interesting.

I'm not sure correct or over your head are the most apt descriptions. Since I'm of the opinion that most folks are, within some small measure about equally capable of understanding anything they set their minds to, my guess is that SAM isn't beyond your capabilities as much as beyond where your interests lie or the depth of knowledge you need for the task at hand. Anyhow, the Dummies book is a good primer. Besides, there's a lot to wring out of PVWatts - probably as much or more than you need at this time. If you're still curious, it's also a bit of a primer for more detailed but no more complicated stuff like where SAM and other algorithms will take you. One of the nice things about a brain is if you keep it active it never stops being curious.

Hollar back with any questions.

Good Luck,

J.P.M.

[Just Steve]

You can do the same with PVWatts. It just takes 2 runs. Use the hourly output option and sum the parameters.

I've been using SAM as a registered user since its original issue. It's useful and powerful if you know what it's doing and the concepts involved. I certainly and strongly encourage anyone to use any tools available to them. But without a decent engineering background to understand what SAM's asking for and what it's outputting, SAM is pretty much useless, or less so.

Maybe Just Steve has such a background, but from what he writes, it doesn't sound like it.

While I'm big on learning as much as possible about solar energy, if Just Steve is like most folks I've helped or attempted to help to get up to speed with SAM (most of who usually and quickly walk away from it when they see what's required), my guess is it'll take him longer to get proficient enough (and he certainly can if he so chooses) to understand how to get all the inputs right and so get meaningful output than it will to simply do two PVWatts runs, use the hourly output and sum the results.

From what he's described as what he's looking for so far, IMO, at this time Just Steve will get more of what he needs out of the Dummies book than a deep dive into solar engineering and its finer points.

An analogy: You don't need a degree in combustion engineering to tune up the internal combustion engine in your vehicle.

BTW, SAM isn't an upgrade to PVWatts. They share some data bases for inputs but they are use different algorithms, are different in purpose and have different genealogy. The modeled results for each will be similar but probably slightly different for the same application. SAM was birthed by NREL. PVWatts genetic heritage came from Sandia labs. Another difference: PV modeling is almost a side show for SAM. It does many other types of modeling applications than simply PV.

Mike 134, thanks for the link.
JPM you are correct SAM is a tad over my head and have no desire to kill as many brain cells required to learn how to use it. I am also in the middle of the "Dummies" book, interesting.

[J.P.M.]

I know that when I lived in an HOA community the rules stated all satellite dishes could not be in the front yard but at the time it was written they were 6 feet in diameter. Another rule was the material of the mail box and since the rule was written plastic had become the norm for new mail boxes which violated the rule. And finally the rules stated roofs had to be shingle or tile. But someone put in a metal roof which was a better option for insurance. People complained but had nothing to stand on. So we rewrote the rules to meet the latest products.

My guess is that with more and more power outages a generator will become standard in new builds and a whole house generator will be quieter then a portable one. So HOA will need to change the rules or get hit with lawsuits.

What you write makes perfect sense to me and I agree.

Full Stop.

However, my experience is that HOA CC & R's are usually or at least often only slightly less difficult to amend as the Constitution of the United States.

Hell, in CA it took the state legislature to write legislation that dealt specifically with HOA's and residential PV and that only became law because the solar industry had a stronger lobby and a lot more popular support than HOAs. And it was still pretty watered down and vague with wiggle room for HOAs.

HOA's are generally pretty entrenched in the status quo. When, in conversations about such things when people bitch about their HOA, I remark that HOA residents think CC &R's are usually great for everyone but them, and offer the idea that no one had a gun to anyone's head to buy into an HOA.

The bottom line is HOA's are not hotbeds of change. Those in HOA's have, in reality, often have fewer realistic prospects to change things than those not living in HOAs. But they were advised of that before they bought in. Caveat emptor. To counter that somewhat, the perception (at least) among many residents is that there will be less unpredictability in neighborhoods and less disruption - and often, in a case of "the rules applying to everyone but me", a lot of unrealistic expectations about what neighbors can't do and what an individual member can do.

[SunEagle]

While I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment expressed and suspect in areas with recent and ongoing power outages that as more folks get ICE generators, HOA's will be faced with defacto CC & R changes that result in after the fact rule changes.

Still, at this time the percentage of homes with standby ICE generators is still quite small, although I suspect that percentage is larger in HOA communities than in the general population - mostly due to the monkey see, monkey do/keep up with the Jones attitude more common in HOA's as well as more affluence.

FWIW, and this is little more than anecdotal, I belong to 3 HOA's in So. CA, none of them in fire prone areas. At this time, none of the 3 make any mention, direct or indirect, of on site power generation using ICE's either for or against. While they all have rules covering excess noise and quiet enjoyment, there is no mention in any of those 3 sets of CC & R's of/or any rules covering noise emitted by stationary generators.

CC & R's partially respond to general trends, usually as a reaction to when new things and trends disturb the perceived status quo rather than being proactive about how things are changing.

As for changing the rules, small numbers of folks will have little chance against social inertia. When a convenience is changed to a necessity by common perception or brainwashing, the CC & R's in effect get reduced to an afterthought or less. CC & R changes then follow.

I know that when I lived in an HOA community the rules stated all satellite dishes could not be in the front yard but at the time it was written they were 6 feet in diameter. Another rule was the material of the mail box and since the rule was written plastic had become the norm for new mail boxes which violated the rule. And finally the rules stated roofs had to be shingle or tile. But someone put in a metal roof which was a better option for insurance. People complained but had nothing to stand on. So we rewrote the rules to meet the latest products.

My guess is that with more and more power outages a generator will become standard in new builds and a whole house generator will be quieter then a portable one. So HOA will need to change the rules or get hit with lawsuits.

[J.P.M.]

Then CHANGE THE RULES. I expect there will be people that use generators if the grid goes down for a while. And the HOA will not be able to do anything about it.

While I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment expressed and suspect in areas with recent and ongoing power outages that as more folks get ICE generators, HOA's will be faced with defacto CC & R changes that result in after the fact rule changes.

Still, at this time the percentage of homes with standby ICE generators is still quite small, although I suspect that percentage is larger in HOA communities than in the general population - mostly due to the monkey see, monkey do/keep up with the Jones attitude more common in HOA's as well as more affluence.

FWIW, and this is little more than anecdotal, I belong to 3 HOA's in So. CA, none of them in fire prone areas. At this time, none of the 3 make any mention, direct or indirect, of on site power generation using ICE's either for or against. While they all have rules covering excess noise and quiet enjoyment, there is no mention in any of those 3 sets of CC & R's of/or any rules covering noise emitted by stationary generators.

CC & R's partially respond to general trends, usually as a reaction to when new things and trends disturb the perceived status quo rather than being proactive about how things are changing.

As for changing the rules, small numbers of folks will have little chance against social inertia. When a convenience is changed to a necessity by common perception or brainwashing, the CC & R's in effect get reduced to an afterthought or less. CC & R changes then follow.

[SunEagle]

Don't want to derail the thread, but is it common to live in an area where a generator like a Generac is not an option?

There are some HOAs where I live where having a Generac installed would be in violation of HOA rules.

Then CHANGE THE RULES. I expect there will be people that use generators if the grid goes down for a while. And the HOA will not be able to do anything about it.

[Mike 134]

That will change as the Grid gets more brittle. First, the HOA officers will be the only ones allowed to have one installed.....

So true about the muckity mucks that run an HOA but some states are beginning to address that.

Solar Access: Issues and Policy Options | State, Local, and Tribal Governments | NREL

[Mike90250]

.....There are some HOAs where I live where having a Generac installed would be in violation of HOA rules.

That will change as the Grid gets more brittle. First, the HOA officers will be the only ones allowed to have one installed.....

[chrisski]

Don't want to derail the thread, but is it common to live in an area where a generator like a Generac is not an option?

There are some HOAs where I live where having a Generac installed would be in violation of HOA rules.

[J.P.M.]

you sound like the type of guy that drills down into details. Try this calculator because you can plug in multiple arrays facing different directions.

Home - System Advisor Model (SAM) (nrel.gov) It's an upgrade from the PTwatts program It will give you more info than you'll ever be able to digest

You can do the same with PVWatts. It just takes 2 runs. Use the hourly output option and sum the parameters.

I've been using SAM as a registered user since its original issue. It's useful and powerful if you know what it's doing and the concepts involved. I certainly and strongly encourage anyone to use any tools available to them. But without a decent engineering background to understand what SAM's asking for and what it's outputting, SAM is pretty much useless, or less so.

Maybe Just Steve has such a background, but from what he writes, it doesn't sound like it.

While I'm big on learning as much as possible about solar energy, if Just Steve is like most folks I've helped or attempted to help to get up to speed with SAM (most of who usually and quickly walk away from it when they see what's required), my guess is it'll take him longer to get proficient enough (and he certainly can if he so chooses) to understand how to get all the inputs right and so get meaningful output than it will to simply do two PVWatts runs, use the hourly output and sum the results.

From what he's described as what he's looking for so far, IMO, at this time Just Steve will get more of what he needs out of the Dummies book than a deep dive into solar engineering and its finer points.

An analogy: You don't need a degree in combustion engineering to tune up the internal combustion engine in your vehicle.

BTW, SAM isn't an upgrade to PVWatts. They share some data bases for inputs but they are use different algorithms, are different in purpose and have different genealogy. The modeled results for each will be similar but probably slightly different for the same application. SAM was birthed by NREL. PVWatts genetic heritage came from Sandia labs. Another difference: PV modeling is almost a side show for SAM. It does many other types of modeling applications than simply PV.

[oregon_phil]

Good evening everybody, I have been lurking around this forum for a bit, I have gotten a few quotes but they have been pretty high $kw. I would like to solicit opinions on this quote.
I know a lot of folks don't like micro inverters but out of 4 quotes only one used string inverters and their quote was $$$$ national company.
My roof does not face in the ideal direction 1/2 the system will be facing 60 deg NE "PV Wats 8,160 kWh/Year* System output may range from 7,833 to 8,434 kWh per year near this location".
And the other half will be facing 240 deg SW, "PV Wats 9,643 kWh/Year* System output may range from 9,256 to 9,966 kWh per year near this location". I know I could drastically reduce the cost by not doing the battery but due to health issues I'm not really up for dealing with a generator in the ice and snow storms that knock out my power. I also want the wife to have to deal with anything when I'm not home. The price is worth it to have heat, refrigeration and lights when the grid is down.
Thanks for any and all opinions
Steve


3/19/2022

Solar Benefits Analysis - Recommended Plan



Steve
Poughkeepsie, NY 12603

COMPONENTS

Solar Panels:

(41) Q-CELL 400 BOB

Inverters:

(41) Enphase Energy IQ

Racking:

Iron Ridge Racking

Critter Guards



Panels 41
Watts Per Panel 400
Total System Watts DC 16,400

INSTALLATION DETAILS $69,232.00

Solar Installed $48,872.00
(1) Generac PWRcell 18kWh Battery Back up w/LMD $20,360.00


INCENTIVE DETAILS
Total Contract Price (including other services, if any) $69,232.00
NYSERDA Rebate ($0.50/watt) $8,200.00
Net Contract Price $61,032.00
State Tax Credit (25% Post-Rebate, $5,000 cap) $5,000.00
Federal Tax Credit (26% Post-Rebate ***) $15,868.32

After Rebate & Incentive Investment: $40,163.68

A post titled "Reviews/thoughts on Generac PWRCell for UPS with hybrid solar?" would give you some feedback for people considering Generac PWRCell. Also, if I recall, there is another discussion about Generac requiring an internet connection for device control. i.e. Phone app talks to cloud, cloud talks to PWRCell.

Also, you could go to the Generac website for some latest reviews. One reviewer was noticing battery charging wasn't happening during cold weather and wasn't told during any time during the "process" that Lithium batteries have temperature limitations. You mentioned snow, ice and storms. If the battery cabinet is outside, then the battery might turn itself off because it's too cold.

[Mike 134]

you sound like the type of guy that drills down into details. Try this calculator because you can plug in multiple arrays facing different directions.

Home - System Advisor Model (SAM) (nrel.gov) It's an upgrade from the PTwatts program It will give you more info than you'll ever be able to digest

[SunEagle]

My investments are doing fine, I don't need more market exposure but will look into generator plus solar. Needs to be propane, no NG where I live.

Depending on the size of the propane tank you get installed you may be able to find a company that comes out every so often to fill it. In the long run it should be cheaper then using 20 - 40 gal bottles of propane.

[J.P.M.]

My investments are doing fine, I don't need more market exposure but will look into generator plus solar. Needs to be propane, no NG where I live.

Good, then keep your investments healthy and rethink the whole solar/battery thing. Begin by getting more informed. Get a book: "Solar Power Your home for Dummies". ~ 25 buck +/- some at amazon/bookstores and disabuse yourself of the peddler hype and that of their media shills, or friends/neighbors who probably know less than you about the subject.

As others seem to suggest, consider skiping the batteries. You can buy a lot of propane and the equipment to burn it as well as a lot of help to run that equipment once in a while for a lot less than the $20+K an overpriced battery bank will cost.

Make arrangements for help during power interruptions and get a propane fired generator. Better, cheaper, more practical during power outages. Also, unless you plan on some effective method to remove snow from the arrays, plan for some reduced winter production from snow accumulations on the panels. That's one of the things solar peddlers either ignore or soft peddle.

Also, unless you have a lot of shade, and in spite of what the solar peddlers may tell you for reasons they aren't usually willing to share with their marks, I'd skip the micros as they violate the KISS principle big time - a lot of duplicate electronics that are sensitive to heat, cold and the elements in a harsh, exposed environment that's about as hot, cold and inaccessible as any in/on your home.

If cost effectiveness has any place in your consideration(s) to get PV, if you have so much shade such that micros are mandated (which is about the only semi logical reason for complicating things with micros), that calls into question the financial sense PV makes in the first place because less sun == less electricity production == less bang for the solar buck.

Welcome to the neighborhood.