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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    Interesting analogy. Actually they are doing the opposite in Germany. They have an excess of solar during the day so they are using old coal mines as reservoirs and pumping water to the top with excess solar. Then at night gravity powers turbines that turn that stored solar energy into useful electricity at night.
    I am not familiar with this, but I will do my research.
    That sounds fascinating!!

    The only issue I see without "battery storage" is when power is sent around the grid, each time it loses a nominal percentage of power.
    So you need batteries to store that excess power.
    Also at the end of the day, if you're tied to the grid and don't have your own back up, you're still at the mercy of the power companies.
    Here in California PG&E left people for days to weeks without power, you're still at there mercy.

    I agree we need to take ideas from other countries that work, but at the same time is our economies of scale are much larger.
    We have over 4x the amount of people then in Germany and much more spread out.
    Personally I like the idea of Solar & Nuclear as our main sources of energy, but a lot of people dislike one of those I previously mentioned.

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    • #17
      It's not an apples to apples comparison. The Powerwall has an inverter included, not the BigBattery. The Powerwall has 14kwh usable capacity, BigBattery advertises 14kwh too, but that's based on new cells which they do not use. They use old Nissan Leaf cells - and have ~65% remaining capacity in them. So their 14kwh battery is in fact a 9.1kwh one.

      Go watch the latest video Will Prowse made on it on youtube.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ReNewReUse View Post
        ...............
        The Tesla Powerwall is $7,000 for 14kWh, BigBattery was $1,900 plus 10% off, so $1,710.
        Apples to Apples that seems like a steal to me, especially because per kWh, Tesla is surprisingly one of the cheapest.
        I realize you have strong opinions and I don't have any illusions of convincing you of anything. However for the benefit of the readers of this forum I am offering the following facts. The Tesla Powerwall is more than a battery. It is a device that can control a Grid Tie inverter to generate electricity when the grid is down. It however is not useful off grid but it can provide backup power during a power outage. The Powerwall can also load shift so one can store solar energy and use it to avoid paying those high rates. The big battery is just that, a battery. To make any kind of Apples to Apples comparison one would need an inverter, and a lot of electronics to make the battery function like a system. That could add $6,000 to $10,000 to the cost to get similar functionality. How do you like those apples?
        I am not off-grid, but my parents are building off-grid in Brazil.
        I am helping them out so this is a perfect solution us.
        That is a luxury most people on this forum don't have. They have to spend their hard earned money and expect a reasonable return on their investment. Good luck with your project. Keep us informed so that others can learn from you.
        Last edited by Ampster; 02-11-2020, 04:22 PM.
        9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ReNewReUse
          You still have to pay them every month... Net Metering isn't free.
          They essentially lower your bill, but its not Free, nothing in this world is free.
          In two years or less the batteries would pay for themselves.

          What was your power bill previously? Then what is your Net Metering bill now?
          You earn credits at there lowest rate and when they bill you, you usually pay peak rates.
          The biggest benefit is the $0 down with net metering.
          Remember these power companies are in business to make money, and historically they have been know to make
          a lot of money.

          The Tesla Powerwall is $7,000 for 14kWh
          YOU ARE NOT LISTENING. My neighbors are heating with gas, but I
          am not even connected. Net metering uses summer sun energy to heat
          and cool 2 buildings. Your 14 KWH battery is useless to me, I made
          7 times that many KWH yesterday, and will carry over nearly 1000 times
          that amount between seasons.

          As for the electric bill, WRONG AGAIN. Electric usage is ZERO, and
          there are no lowest or peak rates. The electric bill is only the $15 meter
          charge I was paying BEFORE net metering, a LOT LESS than before net
          metering of my own solar power started. Bruce Roe

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by ReNewReUse View Post

            You still have to pay them every month... Net Metering isn't free.
            They essentially lower your bill, but its not Free, nothing in this world is free.
            In two years or less the batteries would pay for themselves.
            We'll reach our grid-tie ROI in only 3 more months and then we'll save about $1000 per year for the next 14 years of the contract. I don't mind paying a $21 monthly meter fee for the next 14 years if it means I'll never, ever touch a battery. I get energy credit at the same rate out as in so no loss of value there. They also pay me an average of $100 annually each April for our excess production because we live more conservatively than when we first turned the system on. That means I actually pay about $12 a month to be connected to the utility and save over $1000 a year compared to before I went grid-tie. Just pointing out that not everyone on grid-tie is in the same boat so to speak. Not all of us drank the grid-tie solar leasing Kool-Aid.

            Dave W. Gilbert AZ
            6.63kW grid-tie owner

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ReNewReUse View Post

              You still have to pay them every month... Net Metering isn't free.
              You have completely misunderstood the point of net metering. For a small monthly fee I am provided with guaranteed storage for my solar production with no need to purchase batteries, plus reliable backup if my system should fail. Before net metering my bill was around around $1500/year, now it is about $120 and 5.5 years ago the equipment cost me $5500. You do the math. If I had bought batteries I'd be buying my second set about now, or maybe my third or fourth set if I had purchased from a used junk battery dealer recommended by a newbie here on the forum.

              Originally posted by ReNewReUse View Post
              They essentially lower your bill, but its not Free, nothing in this world is free.
              In two years or less the batteries would pay for themselves.
              Batteries in general use today cost add 40 to 80 cents per kWh to your energy cost due to the limited cycle life and replacement cost. Stop offering uninformed opinions as advice.


              Comment


              • #22
                "The power company looks like a free, infinite capacity, 100 percent efficient, zero maintenance
                battery to us on net metering."

                Just a minor correction to the above. Netmetering is great, but it is not 100% efficient. You lose power in the grid, both in the wire itself and in the transformers. How much power is lost depends on complex things. I've read that 10% of the electricity generated is lost in distribution, but it's unclear how much of YOUR generated electricity is lost in the grid, on the way to other users. Good luck tracking down your personal electrons.
                http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/l...and-your-plug/

                The power company charges you for this loss in their own way, based on as much as they can negotiate with the public utility commission, and their lobbiests seem to be getting stronger.

                That said, I've also heard that between charging the battery and delivering that energy to the load, 20% of the energy is lost in things like battery heating and semiconductor device heating. That number will vary wildly with battery design and electronics design, just as grid efficiency will vary wildly with distance, transformer design, etc.

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                • #23
                  I finally found the information about the CEO of this company. His time in prison was short and BigBattery is his latest incarnation. I am sure he has an explanation for the copyright case that put him behind bars.
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Lundgren
                  Last edited by Ampster; 02-11-2020, 06:03 PM.
                  9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by bob-n View Post
                    "The power company looks like a free, infinite capacity, 100 percent efficient, zero maintenance
                    battery to us on net metering."

                    Just a minor correction to the above. Netmetering is great, but it is not 100% efficient. You lose power in the grid, both in the wire itself and in the transformers.

                    The power company charges you for this loss in their own way, based on as much as they can negotiate with the public utility commission, and their lobbiests seem to be getting stronger.

                    That said, I've also heard that between charging the battery and delivering that energy to the load, 20% of the energy is lost in things like battery heating and semiconductor device heating. That number will vary wildly with battery design and electronics design, just as grid efficiency will vary wildly with distance, transformer design, etc.
                    No, the only net metering losses are in my own wiring to the PoCo meter. Yes there are
                    losses in the transmission system, but they do not affect the PoCo meter into my place.
                    The PoCo absorbs these losses along with all the other losses such as boilers and
                    generators. My net metering actually helps reduce PoCo losses, because when air
                    cond load peaks, my solar is running all the AC down my street, evening out peaks.
                    When I get the energy back is a more efficient off peak time.

                    And yes, batteries have quite significant losses as well. Bruce Roe

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by bob-n View Post
                      "The power company looks like a free, infinite capacity, 100 percent efficient, zero maintenance
                      battery to us on net metering."

                      Just a minor correction to the above. Netmetering is great, but it is not 100% efficient. You lose power in the grid, both in the wire itself and in the transformers. How much power is lost depends on complex things. I've read that 10% of the electricity generated is lost in distribution, but it's unclear how much of YOUR generated electricity is lost in the grid, on the way to other users. Good luck tracking down your personal electrons.
                      http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/l...and-your-plug/
                      Nothing in life is 100% efficient. I don't consider any electrons personal to me and only have an interest in what my bill looks like at the end of my True Up. I think what Bruce meant is the power at the meter compared with storing it in a battery. All I care about is what is measured by the meter. As a practical matter the energy I generate probably doesn't get past the second transformer on my block. It is used by my neighbors.
                      The power company charges you for this loss in their own way, based on as much as they can negotiate with the public utility commission, and their lobbiests seem to be getting stronger.
                      Yes, I know. I have two systems on NEM 1.0 and my other system is on NEM 2.0 which has nonbypassable charges of about $0.02per kWhr. That is still less expensive than the overhead of my hybrid inverter, charging my batteries and inverting that power back to run my loads. I am hedging my bets that pricing will continue to become less favorable and self consumption will be worth investing in more battery capacity.
                      That said, I've also heard that between charging the battery and delivering that energy to the load, 20% of the energy is lost in things like battery heating and semiconductor device heating. That number will vary wildly with battery design and electronics design, just as grid efficiency will vary wildly with distance, transformer design, etc.
                      That is probably correct, but it doesn't matter because my capital may be able to more efficiently reduce my cost structure. One way I have chosen to do that is to drive EVs which are a more efficient way to propel a vehicle since 60% of the fuel consumed by an internal combustion engine is lost to heat.
                      Last edited by Ampster; 02-11-2020, 07:18 PM.
                      9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ReNewReUse View Post

                        I believe solar is great, but not on its own.
                        The sun doesn't shine 24 hours a day, so when they want to pump water at night, the batteries would hold its storage.
                        Tesla's could have panels on top of them, but they use batteries to store power.
                        There isn't a need to pump water at night . Water pumps all day into a large elevated tank and gravity flows to all 55 homes in our campo. As Ampster eluded to, the tank is a battery in a way powered by gravity.
                        2.2kw Suntech mono, Classic 200, NEW Trace SW4024

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by littleharbor View Post

                          There isn't a need to pump water at night . Water pumps all day into a large elevated tank and gravity flows to all 55 homes in our campo. As Ampster eluded to, the tank is a battery in a way powered by gravity.
                          I have always wondered if the water in a large tank needs to be treated in the tank or at each usage point? Or is this water used for non drinking applications?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                            I have always wondered if the water in a large tank needs to be treated in the tank or at each usage point? Or is this water used for non drinking applications?
                            Ours is brackish and is only used for dish washing, laundry, showers and toilets. I would think, if they had the ability to test the tank water , and it were fresh water they could treat it at storage tank level. I know, that the reservoirs on Catalina are treated this way with granulated chlorine
                            2.2kw Suntech mono, Classic 200, NEW Trace SW4024

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                            • #29
                              I use a ozone bubbler in my fresh water storage tank. I trade off using chlorine, for a 20W UV bulb every year.
                              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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