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  • SunEagle
    replied
    Originally posted by solardreamer View Post

    Don't know the exact reasoning but I suspect they don't want anything heavy and stationary (i.e. not easily moved) that can interfere with firefighters. EV is mobile and relatively easy to move out the way if necessary.
    My guess is that someone has told the politicians that a large energy storage system is a potential fire hazard.

    It doesn't need to make sense but if it gets a politician itchy then they try to push through legislation to "protect" the public.

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  • solardreamer
    replied
    Originally posted by JSchnee21 View Post
    "You are correct the limit is 50 kWh for residential. There are more strict requirements for systems of 20 kWh or greater."

    While I have a lot of respect for firefighters and the fire code (speaking as a 3rd generation volunteer FF, myself), I'm not sure how this ordinance makes any sense. You mean to tell me that I cannot install a UL approved 50+ kWh electrical storage appliance in my home (or mounted to the exterior of my home).

    BUT, I can park my 70-100 kWh, non-UL, non-electrician installed Tesla in the garage and charge it there? A battery that's subject to vibration, road damage, potential collisions, and a variety of other hazards which could result in cell damage and thermal runaway while charging.

    How does that make sense?!?!
    Don't know the exact reasoning but I suspect they don't want anything heavy and stationary (i.e. not easily moved) that can interfere with firefighters. EV is mobile and relatively easy to move out the way if necessary.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ampster
    replied
    I am glad they have not gone so far as to tell me what I can park in my garage. You are correct it doesn't make sense. Actually In the big picture it doesn't make sense to park 20 gallons of gasoline in a garage either. I love not having oil drips on the garage floor and that there is no exhaust blowing into the house if the door into the house is open when I park.

    Leave a comment:


  • JSchnee21
    replied
    Link to California code
    https://up.codes/viewer/california/c...nd-systems#608

    This may not actually even apply to PowerWall. PowerWall is a pre-engineered stationary storage system which is UL 9540 listed. So some/many of the requirements for 20+kWh storage array may not apply.

    https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/...rthamerica.pdf

    But you may still have issues mounting them flush to interior walls. The new code seems to want the storage arrays to be free standing. But if you mount it outside, then this is not required.
    Last edited by JSchnee21; 10-24-2019, 02:38 PM.

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  • JSchnee21
    replied
    "You are correct the limit is 50 kWh for residential. There are more strict requirements for systems of 20 kWh or greater."

    While I have a lot of respect for firefighters and the fire code (speaking as a 3rd generation volunteer FF, myself), I'm not sure how this ordinance makes any sense. You mean to tell me that I cannot install a UL approved 50+ kWh electrical storage appliance in my home (or mounted to the exterior of my home).

    BUT, I can park my 70-100 kWh, non-UL, non-electrician installed Tesla in the garage and charge it there? A battery that's subject to vibration, road damage, potential collisions, and a variety of other hazards which could result in cell damage and thermal runaway while charging.

    How does that make sense?!?!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by solardreamer View Post
    .........

    Also, Ensemble generator integration is not available? Will you be able to at least charge from the grid?
    It will depend if Enphase implements that on a case by case basis. As you may know Tesla has disabled it so there is no hassle for their users taking the Investment Tax Credit. Interestingly Tesla can enable grid charging as they may be doing today for some PowerWalls in the Bay Area who are under Storm Watch and are facing another Public Safety Power Shutdown (?PSPS).

    Leave a comment:


  • solardreamer
    replied
    As it has been pointed out, Ensemble is not providing anything new that Outback/Magnasine AC coupled battery backup solutions have been providing for years. More recently, Tesla Powerwall is another similar solution. They are all expensive and complex especially for backup power use cases. Does anyone know if Ensemble will be significantly less expensive/complex than other AC coupled battery backup solutions? I see the Enphase AC batteries are much more expensive than Powerwall on per Kwh basis.

    Also, Ensemble generator integration is not available? Will you be able to at least charge from the grid?
    Last edited by solardreamer; 10-23-2019, 01:21 PM.

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  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by emartin00 View Post

    The 2020 standard is going to be a maximum of 50kWh for Lithium energy storage. That's probably more than the average homeowner is going to need.
    You are correct the limit is 50 kWh for residential. There are more strict requirements for systems of 20 kWh or greater.

    https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2018/08/...nia-fire-code/
    Last edited by Ampster; 10-23-2019, 11:37 AM.

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  • emartin00
    replied
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post

    There are new fire regulations coming down that may influence where and how much Lithium battery capacity can be placed in a dwelling, including a garage.

    I have also heard that the Ensemble system will only be available to installers. Maybe that is why there are few details.
    The 2020 standard is going to be a maximum of 50kWh for Lithium energy storage. That's probably more than the average homeowner is going to need.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    ..... Yes, the batteries will also have a decent space requirement, but those can be placed anywhere - the 200G, however, has a much more limited options for location.

    At this point (a point at which I'm actually designing my own personal home's system), I really with Enphase was a bit more forthcoming on details.
    There are new fire regulations coming down that may influence where and how much Lithium battery capacity can be placed in a dwelling, including a garage.

    I have also heard that the Ensemble system will only be available to installers. Maybe that is why there are few details.

    Leave a comment:


  • CraziFuzzy
    replied
    I think, that for me at least, the biggest question regarding the ensemble stuff will be what sort of requirements the 200G will require, in terms of space, interconnections, and grounding. My assumptions are as such:

    - 240/120 power in (from main panel in most installations; from meter/main in those without combo panels)
    - A contactor or switch to seperate output from input when grid stability goes away.
    - 240/120 power out (to 'critical loads' subpanel)
    - Neutral and Ground will still be bonded at the main. Since L1 and L2 will be interrupted in the 200G during island mode, and since enphase IQ6/7/8 inverters don't have a neutral, then the 200G will require a Neutral Forming Transformer that will come online in island mode, to maintain 120V per phase.
    - All of this able to communicate and be controlled by the central controller.
    - All of the above seems to imply that the 200G is not going to be a small item, so space concerns may actually impact how easily it can work as an 'upgrade path' for existing IQ system owners. Yes, the batteries will also have a decent space requirement, but those can be placed anywhere - the 200G, however, has a much more limited options for location.

    At this point (a point at which I'm actually designing my own personal home's system), I really with Enphase was a bit more forthcoming on details.

    Leave a comment:


  • ButchDeal
    replied
    Originally posted by rynoshark View Post

    Great, I misunderstood reading their materials that real-time bimodal was possible. Thanks for explaining!
    bimodal means that the system can be both ON and OFF grid. Outback has some of the most options for zero feed in, load shifting, backup, demand avoidance, AC coupled, etc , etc.



    Originally posted by rynoshark View Post
    Can DC coupled systems be easily expanded and changed? What I really like about Enphase is the ease at which solar can be extended...in my case, I undersized my solar due to budgetary reasons, but will add more PV panels to the existing system (racking already exists) over time, as well as adding battery. Plus, panels can easily be swapped to higher output panels later (assuming I still have microinverter capacity). It seems with DC systems, so much pre-planning and sizing had to be done that you had to decide everything up front and stick with it for the next 20+ years (unless you wanted to spend a large sum of money to update the inverters/DC system all at once). This also means that for solar installers, existing customers mostly won't upgrade for decade+, so having a relationship with them isn't as valuable in the Enphase world where 2-3 years later you could upsell additions to their existing solar systems. But I'm happy to be wrong in my assumption!
    being able to be changed is not the same thing as simple. AC coupled are complex and you can do them now, with most existing bimodal inverters.

    Some DC coupled systems are very easy to modify like the SolarEdge StorEdge system which can be installed with a minimum solar array, zero batteries, and no transformer. or even NO solar. You can add solar, batteries, transformer at any time easily.

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  • rynoshark
    replied
    Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
    NO it is not right. Outback most certainly CAN support backup for Grid tie installs. that is the entire point of most bimodal systems and sort of the definition of bimodal inverter. An OutBack inverter can do load shifting (what you are calling time shifting) AND backup at the same time.
    Great, I misunderstood reading their materials that real-time bimodal was possible. Thanks for explaining!

    Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
    This system would be what is called an AC coupled bimodal system which is about the most complex of a bimodal install.
    DC coupled systems are simpler both to install and to operate.
    Can DC coupled systems be easily expanded and changed? What I really like about Enphase is the ease at which solar can be extended...in my case, I undersized my solar due to budgetary reasons, but will add more PV panels to the existing system (racking already exists) over time, as well as adding battery. Plus, panels can easily be swapped to higher output panels later (assuming I still have microinverter capacity). It seems with DC systems, so much pre-planning and sizing had to be done that you had to decide everything up front and stick with it for the next 20+ years (unless you wanted to spend a large sum of money to update the inverters/DC system all at once). This also means that for solar installers, existing customers mostly won't upgrade for decade+, so having a relationship with them isn't as valuable in the Enphase world where 2-3 years later you could upsell additions to their existing solar systems. But I'm happy to be wrong in my assumption!

    Leave a comment:


  • jflorey2
    replied
    Originally posted by rynoshark View Post
    NewBostonConst, it seems like the existing Outback FXR (and related models) that neweclipse mentioned above only support EITHER on-grid or off-grid setup (e.g. you pick one at time of installation). It doesn't appear they support switching modes on power failure...so you either use battery storage/charging for off-grid power, or you use on-grid battery for time shifting battery usage to avoid peak pricing. Is that right?
    Nope. I have an FXR based system for backup, and it supports a lot of modes, including UPS (where the inverter never lets the power drop, but still allows backfeed when the grid is there.)

    I would note that a big advantage to an Enphase IQ8 based system is that it can be installed incrementally even for off-grid systems.
    Last edited by jflorey2; 09-05-2019, 01:32 PM.

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  • ButchDeal
    replied
    Originally posted by rynoshark View Post
    NewBostonConst, it seems like the existing Outback FXR (and related models) that neweclipse mentioned above only support EITHER on-grid or off-grid setup (e.g. you pick one at time of installation). It doesn't appear they support switching modes on power failure...so you either use battery storage/charging for off-grid power, or you use on-grid battery for time shifting battery usage to avoid peak pricing. Is that right?
    NO it is not right. Outback most certainly CAN support backup for Grid tie installs. that is the entire point of most bimodal systems and sort of the definition of bimodal inverter. An OutBack inverter can do load shifting (what you are calling time shifting) AND backup at the same time.

    My system switches so seamlessly that my wife and I often don't know that power outages have occurred till we notice in monitoring or that the stove clock (not on backup power) has reset.

    Originally posted by rynoshark View Post
    The only complex part of Enphase's setup to me is the transitional period of rolling the product out to existing IQ6/IQ7 systems as an upgrade, which has lots of limitations on the capacity of the Enphase battery, especially with large PV arrays (which may need to then be split into smaller separate ones). This complexity only seems to exist to provide an upgrade path for households with "legacy" IQ6/IQ6 systems. A new install should be about as simple as you can be (since you need a transfer switch, battery/chargers, and then the standard PV circuits...with all the associated shutoff switches and other NEC code required items).
    This system would be what is called an AC coupled bimodal system which is about the most complex of a bimodal install.
    DC coupled systems are simpler both to install and to operate.

    Last edited by ButchDeal; 09-05-2019, 01:20 PM.

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