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Grid tied PV with battery backup in New York and New Jersey?

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  • Grid tied PV with battery backup in New York and New Jersey?

    Someone is telling me that for grid tied PV with battery backup in New York and New Jersey, you can't have the batteries charged off of your PV inverter - that is, that the pv inverter must shut down when the grid goes down. I'd like to confirm this before giving up on this system configuration because a friend of mine in Northern NJ (PSE&G) was hoping for just this to be able to run essentials during an outage of several weeks.

    Also, does anyone know why or how such a limitation was created?

  • #2
    Originally posted by lensman View Post
    Someone is telling me that for grid tied PV with battery backup in New York and New Jersey, you can't have the batteries charged off of your PV inverter - that is, that the pv inverter must shut down when the grid goes down.
    That sounds like info coming from a sales guy who has only one system he sells - and it doesn't provide backup power.

    There are systems that provide backup power when the sun is out (SMA Secure Power.) There are hybrid systems that provide power all the time and need a battery (Outback based systems.) There are systems that can take a battery in the future (Skybox and, I believe, StorEdge) to provide backup power. There are separate backup battery/inverter systems (Powerwall) that can also juggle power during the day. There are fully independent off-grid systems. I very much doubt they are all illegal in NY and NJ.

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    • #3
      Who is telling you that? They are wrong. Grid tie battery backup inverters just have to isolate when the grid is down. Grid tie non backup inverters do not have a way to isolate so they shutdown.
      Last edited by ButchDeal; 04-05-2019, 09:32 PM.
      OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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      • #4
        The person who told you that does not seem to know about hybrid systems...

        The rule he is probably confused about is the fact that when the grid goes down, your solar installation must be disconnected / isolated from the grid as not to risk sending power on the lines while technicians are working on them.
        And so systems without battery backup do shutdown for that reason.

        But hybrid systems like (among others), SolarEdge combined with an LG Resu10H, or Pika Energy, will isolate themselves from the grid during an outage so that your solar panels cannot send current back to the grid. At the same time, they will continue to power a critical loads Sub panel (or the whole panel if the system is large enough).

        So yes your solar system must be disconnected / isolated from the grid during an outage, but Yes Hybrid systems can do that and keep your system running to provide backup power.
        Last edited by scrambler; 04-05-2019, 09:29 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by scrambler View Post
          The person who told you that does not seem to know about hybrid systems...

          The rule he is probably confused about is the fact that when the grid goes down, your solar installation must be disconnected / isolated from the grid as not to risk sending power on the lines while technicians are working on them.
          And so systems without battery backup do shutdown for that reason.

          But hybrid systems like (among others), SolarEdge combined with an LG Resu10H, or Pika Energy, will isolate themselves from the grid during an outage so that your solar panels cannot send current back to the grid. At the same time, they will continue to power a critical loads Sub panel (or the whole panel if the system is large enough).

          So yes your solar system must be disconnected / isolated from the grid during an outage, but Yes Hybrid systems can do that and keep your system running to provide backup power.
          Just something to think about. The backup power will run as long as the battery can handle it after the sun goes down.

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          • #6
            To everyone responding, this is not a salesperson but someone on another online forum who does know that such a configuration is possible in many states, but who is saying is that this is "illegal" in New York and New Jersey and that the utility won't interconnect or net meter you in this configuration. Also, note that he says that you can have a grid tied PV system with battery backup in NY and NJ, but that you can't charge the battery off of your PV grid. He says that if you do want your battery to charge off of your PV grid, then the utilities in NY and NJ won't interconnect with you.

            I find his assertions incredible but I'm looking for definitive proof against them. Ideally this would be someone who has actually executed an interconnection of a grid tied PV with battery system with a New Jersey or New York utility.
            Last edited by lensman; 04-06-2019, 10:01 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by lensman View Post
              To everyone responding, this is not a salesperson but someone on another online forum who does know that such a configuration is possible in many states, but who is saying is that this is "illegal" in New York and New Jersey and that the utility won't interconnect or net meter you in this configuration. Also, note that he says that you can have a grid tied PV system with battery backup in NY and NJ, but that you can't charge the battery off of your PV grid. He says that if you do want your battery to charge off of your PV grid, then the utilities in NY and NJ won't interconnect with you.

              I find his assertions incredible but I'm looking for definitive proof against them. Ideally this would be someone who has actually executed an interconnection of a grid tied PV with battery system with a New Jersey or New York utility.
              If you're looking for definitive proof, go to the legislation for your state, or any state, as it relates to NEM, energy storage and utility interconnection rules and tariffs. Then, see how your POCO has interpreted the legislation and then any case law or adjudication that has dealt with those issues. That's definitive stuff - conclusive, exhaustive, complete and final.

              After that, contact your POCO and ask them. It's always better to know the answers to your questions before you ask.

              Forums are OK for simple stuff, and maybe a good place to get a consensus opinion that has a decent probability of being correct and useful, but rarely definitive as that word is defined. Forums do not have the force of law behind them.

              If you want definitive answers to such things, go to the source and quit expecting opinion to substitute for what you ask for. Or, take your chances and take opinion that's mostly anonymous and unvetted.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by lensman View Post
                To everyone responding, this is not a salesperson but someone on another online forum who does know that such a configuration is possible in many states, but who is saying is that this is "illegal" in New York and New Jersey and that the utility won't interconnect or net meter you in this configuration. Also, note that he says that you can have a grid tied PV system with battery backup in NY and NJ, but that you can't charge the battery off of your PV grid. He says that if you do want your battery to charge off of your PV grid, then the utilities in NY and NJ won't interconnect with you.

                I find his assertions incredible but I'm looking for definitive proof against them. Ideally this would be someone who has actually executed an interconnection of a grid tied PV with battery system with a New Jersey or New York utility.
                He she or it is just wrong by a long shot with no sight of reality. There are many grid tie battery backup system and any that is DC coupled ( most common ) would charge from the solar array most if the time.

                I am not sure of the strange assertion that you can not charge baTteries from solar. There was some about not charging from the grid in other west coast states and MD but that was not elligal but prohibitid under a financial incentive, and in the end mostly dropped. Not charging from solar makes ansolutly no since.

                Since this idiot is making this strange assertion that no one else has any evidence of, why dont you ask him to show you the legislation
                Last edited by ButchDeal; 04-06-2019, 10:32 AM.
                OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                  If you're looking for definitive proof, go to the legislation for your state, or any state, as it relates to NEM, energy storage and utility interconnection rules and tariffs. Then, see how your POCO has interpreted the legislation and then any case law or adjudication that has dealt with those issues. That's definitive stuff - conclusive, exhaustive, complete and final.

                  After that, contact your POCO and ask them. It's always better to know the answers to your questions before you ask.

                  Forums are OK for simple stuff, and maybe a good place to get a consensus opinion that has a decent probability of being correct and useful, but rarely definitive as that word is defined. Forums do not have the force of law behind them.

                  If you want definitive answers to such things, go to the source and quit expecting opinion to substitute for what you ask for. Or, take your chances and take opinion that's mostly anonymous and unvetted.
                  I had previously located the following related to Level 1 interconnection of renewable energy systems in the State of New Jersey, but am unable to interpret what it implies. https://advance.lexis.com/documentpa...b-8e2dc7fdcee8

                  In particular, it's unclear to me what "A customer-generator facility's point of common coupling shall not be on a transmission line, a spot network, or an area network." means.

                  OTOH, I'm not sure it's necessarily relevant under the assumption that the residential "customer-generator facility" could be considered the combined "pv + storage" facility.

                  Also, on the PSE&G website, the FAQ says the following:
                  Q: Will my solar energy system operate if PSE&G experiences an electric outage?
                  A: In most cases, your system will automatically shut down in the event of an outage to protect utility workers as they restore power. However, some system designs include isolation circuitry that allows continued operation. We recommend that you discuss with your solar contractor.

                  I am also awaiting a reply to my inquiry to PSE&G. Even if PSE&G ever replies, there's always the chance that the person handling their email questions doesn't know what they're talking aboutl Lol

                  Anyway, I decided to ask the forum here since a simple "Hey, I did it and I live in NJ" would be definitive enough to my friend. I apologize if you think this is a waste of everyone's time because everyone should research their questions from first principles. I had spent several hours doing the legwork to get the answers from what I considered more definite sources before coming here in desperation. If it's my use of the term "definitive", all I meant was that I got several replies saying that "pv + storage is possible with transfer switch isolation", which I already know based on my research for my sister in Hawaii and myself in Florida. It's the specific administrative rules about interconnection in New York and New Jersey that I was asking about. I am not looking for a specific legal opinion, but rather just an answer relative to NY/NJ instead of general "such a design is possible" answers that I was getting. Again, apologies if this offended you. I didn't mean to offend you at all!

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                  • #10
                    Have you tried contacting local installers and ask them if they install hybrid systems?
                    They would obviously be aware of the local legislation

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lensman View Post

                      I had previously located the following related to Level 1 interconnection of renewable energy systems in the State of New Jersey, but am unable to interpret what it implies. https://advance.lexis.com/documentpa...b-8e2dc7fdcee8

                      In particular, it's unclear to me what "A customer-generator facility's point of common coupling shall not be on a transmission line, a spot network, or an area network." means.

                      OTOH, I'm not sure it's necessarily relevant under the assumption that the residential "customer-generator facility" could be considered the combined "pv + storage" facility.

                      Also, on the PSE&G website, the FAQ says the following:
                      Q: Will my solar energy system operate if PSE&G experiences an electric outage?
                      A: In most cases, your system will automatically shut down in the event of an outage to protect utility workers as they restore power. However, some system designs include isolation circuitry that allows continued operation. We recommend that you discuss with your solar contractor.

                      I am also awaiting a reply to my inquiry to PSE&G. Even if PSE&G ever replies, there's always the chance that the person handling their email questions doesn't know what they're talking aboutl Lol

                      Anyway, I decided to ask the forum here since a simple "Hey, I did it and I live in NJ" would be definitive enough to my friend. I apologize if you think this is a waste of everyone's time because everyone should research their questions from first principles. I had spent several hours doing the legwork to get the answers from what I considered more definite sources before coming here in desperation. If it's my use of the term "definitive", all I meant was that I got several replies saying that "pv + storage is possible with transfer switch isolation", which I already know based on my research for my sister in Hawaii and myself in Florida. It's the specific administrative rules about interconnection in New York and New Jersey that I was asking about. I am not looking for a specific legal opinion, but rather just an answer relative to NY/NJ instead of general "such a design is possible" answers that I was getting. Again, apologies if this offended you. I didn't mean to offend you at all!
                      No offense offered or taken. What you do and where you get your information and what you do with it is NOMB or concern. Just go to the source if you want answers with a higher probability of being correct rather than answers from a semi-anonymous source where the respondents have no accountability for safety or accuracy of their statements or replies. I appreciate that it may not be easy. Been there many times. FWIW, two things I keep in mind in such situations: Life's a bitch, but nothing can replace persistence.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Also, on the PSE&G website, the FAQ says the following:
                        Q: Will my solar energy system operate if PSE&G experiences an electric outage?
                        A: In most cases, your system will automatically shut down in the event of an outage to protect utility workers as they restore power. However, some system designs include isolation circuitry that allows continued operation. We recommend that you discuss with your solar contractor.

                        That exactly describes how a proper hybrid system works. The inverter's internal transfer switch activates and your desktop computer hardly notices the cut over. Now you are isolated, and the power you have depends on the sun and your battery.


                        I HAVE heard of rules against charging a battery from the grid at low rates and selling back at the prime rates, but that's going to cycle your expen$ive battery needlessly.
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                        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
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