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  • Help determine equipment for Single Family Home System

    Hello,
    Please help me determine the right solar / battery backup system for my home. I have a 3,000 SF house north of Los Angeles. Here are some of the (E) components of my house that I would like to power, or offset the expense of electricity:
    Offset:
    - Hybrid Car - 9.2 kWh lithium-ion (Likely 2 EVs the next decade)
    - (2) AC / Heat units 88K BTU Heat / 4Ton AC
    --Offset with some electric heat?
    - Electric Water Heater (Supplement to Gas Tank Heater)
    - Water recirculator pump
    - (3) Electric Miele Ovens
    - Electric Wolf Convection Oven - Countertop

    Backup:
    - Sub Zero Refigerator / Freezer
    - 3-5 outlets
    • Cell Phones
    • iPad
    • Laptops
    • TV
    • Ceramic space heater
    - Home Internet Router
    - Home Security System
    - Home Security Cameras
    - Pond Pump
    I am hoping to get some advice / recommendations on a PV setup and battery Backup. What products are most reliable and cost effective? My budget is $30-$50,000. Thanks
    Last edited by 805DesignLab; 03-07-2019, 02:50 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by 805DesignLab View Post
    Hello,
    Please help me determine the right solar / battery backup system for my home. I have a 3,000 SF house north of Los Angeles. Here are some of the (E) components of my house that I would like to power, or offset the expense of electricity:
    Offset:
    - Hybrid Car - 9.2 kWh lithium-ion (Likely 2 EVs the next decade)
    - (2) AC / Heat units 88K BTU Heat / 4Ton AC
    --Offset with some electric heat?
    - Electric Water Heater (Supplement to Gas Tank Heater)
    - Water recirculator pump
    - (3) Electric Miele Ovens
    - Electric Wolf Convection Oven - Countertop

    Backup:
    - Sub Zero Refigerator / Freezer
    - 3-5 outlets
    • Cell Phones
    • iPad
    • Laptops
    • TV
    • Ceramic space heater
    - Home Internet Router
    - Home Security System
    - Home Security Cameras
    - Pond Pump
    I am hoping to get some advice / recommendations on a PV setup and battery Backup. What producs are most reliable and cost effective? Thanks
    How much do you want to spend 25K-100K 300K and Grid Tied, Hybrid,off-grid? your in that Price range and PV system Types
    IMO Switch ele to propane
    Last edited by Paul Land; 03-06-2019, 08:11 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      You are describing several MAJOR loads. The "simple" way is to install a basic "Grid Inter Tie" system with out any batteries and feed all harvested power into the grid to spin your meter backwards.
      And extreme conservation is in order too. High efficiency air conditioning, fridge are in order, since those are your major loads (besides your EV's)

      Going TOU metering to charge the EVs with cheap midnight - 4am power, while your SW facing PV array(s) unwind the meter during peak use hours 11am - 9pm
      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

      Comment


      • #4
        Paul,
        My budget is $30,000-$50,000. I would like to be tied to the grid. I live in a semi rural area with access to So Cal Edison.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 805DesignLab View Post
          Paul,
          My budget is $30,000-$50,000. I would like to be tied to the grid. I live in a semi rural area with access to So Cal Edison.
          you are easily in the $ range.
          No one here can give you a good answer without modeling your home physical layout (azimuth(s), tilt(s), shadows etc ) and your annual consumption.

          OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

          Comment


          • #6
            OP: You have a lot of self education to do before any help or information you might get here will be meaningful or efficiently conveyed.

            You need a primer on how you use energy, how to use less of it, how you pay for it, and how and in what ways PV may, and equally importantly may not help you.

            Suggestions/Things to consider:

            1.) Buy ($20) or download a slightly outdated but still valuable copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies".

            2.) Get familiar with how much electricity you use in a yearand you are charged for electricity, and also how things will be billed to you if/when you get PV.

            3.) Download a residential PV model called PVWatts. Read all the help screens a couple of times and use 10 % for the system loss parameter instead of the 14 % default. Easy to learn and use. Do a few runs and zero in on a system size.

            4.) With your newly gained knowledge from doing the above, figure out what your goals are and if/how PV might help obtain those goals.

            5.) Come back here and fill in knowledge gaps. You'll ask better questions and get more informative answers.

            6.) Iterate #'s 3,4, and 5 above until your satisfied that what you have meets the goals you set.

            7.) Only after all that, call 3 or so vendors who have been licensed electrical contractors for at least 10 years and who have sold PV for 5+years or more. Avoid the big, national outfits. Do not share pricing with vendors. Know that, at this time, the going rate for PV in So. CA is ~~ $3.00 - $3.25/STC W, maybe a bit less. Worry about vendor integrity and vendor quality more than initial price. Before you let any contracts for PV, get your roof inspected and serviced. PV will last a log time. Give the roof under it the highest possible probability of lasting as long. Cheap insurance.

            Take what you may want of the above. Scrap the rest.

            Comment


            • #7
              OK, I have tried three time to post and every time, the post gets "reviewed" for spam, and ends up with a bigger piece cutoff.
              The post does not include any spam, but how to size your array, and my experience with solutuons matching the OP question.

              So I am removing it and will try again in different pieces with no links to see if it makes a difference...
              Last edited by scrambler; 03-10-2019, 11:58 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by scrambler View Post
                . Hi everyone I am new here but I am in the process of evaluating a solar system for myself, ........[*]More power for critical loads, and the ability to have 240V critical loads, which is interesting if you have an EV (Solaredge only has 120V critical loads support)
                the solaredge StoreEdhe most definitly provides 240v split phase power.

                Originally posted by scrambler:n393461
                [*]Uses One PV optimizer per string (set of multiple panels) instead of one per panel. This is a disadvantage if you have a lot of individual panels shading issues,
                That is not an optimizer. It is just a string MPPT.
                OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks ButchDeal,
                  I guess the installer who mentioned I could not get 240v critical load with SolarEdge was misinformed
                  and thank you for the clarification that Pika Energy PV links are not Optimizers.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by scrambler View Post
                    Thanks ButchDeal,
                    I guess the installer who mentioned I could not get 240v critical load with SolarEdge was misinformed
                    and thank you for the clarification that Pika Energy PV links are not Optimizers.
                    He was more than a little miss informed and likely trying to sell some other brand.

                    Pike Energy is not inly not optimizers but is just standard strings, no different from any other non-ptimized string system as far as the strings go.
                    OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                      He was more than a little miss informed and likely trying to sell some other brand.

                      Sadly no, this is main offering May be there are some local code issues...




                      Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                      Pike Energy is not inly not optimizers but is just standard strings, no different from any other non-ptimized string system as far as the strings go.
                      Do you see a problem with that for a full south non obstructed array?

                      Side note: I am still trying to get my original post back up.
                      The formatting was messed up, when I fixed it, it was flagged for review as potential spam, and when it got posted back, half of it was missing.
                      So I reposted the whole thing, and it was flagged again, we will see if it makes it back...
                      Last edited by scrambler; 03-10-2019, 07:08 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by scrambler View Post

                        Sadly no, this is main offering May be there are some local code issues...
                        Nope. SolarEdge StorEdge system provides 240V only, and an auto-transformer has to be included from solarEdge to provide 120V on backup systems.
                        The installer was VERY missinformed if they didn't know this.
                        Or maybe you are confusing them talking about SMA secure power marketing BS system which does only provide 120V single outlet.


                        Originally posted by scrambler View Post
                        Do you see a problem with that for a full south non obstructed array?
                        If you don't have any shadows (most homeowners think this but ignore lots of little shadows like stand pipes, chimneys, telephone poles, etc etc) then string inverter would be fine.
                        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have removed my original post as the original one had bad formatting, and when I attempted to fix the format, it got flagged as potential spam, and big chunks went missing.
                          Below is the first part of the post that talks about sizing the array and critical load panel.

                          Hi everyone I am new here but I am in the process of evaluating a solar system for myself, so I thought I would share what I gathered as it applies to your question.

                          Finding the power of the solar array you need to cover your desired electricity production:
                          • Deciding how much electricity you want to produce per year:
                            • Get your last year total kWh consumption from your provider (if they give you access) or sort through your last 12 monthly electricity bills.
                          Let us say for example that you used 9000kWh last year.
                          • Decide if you want to cover all of it with your panels, or more or less.
                          Let us say you wish to produce 9000kWh per year with your panels
                          • Finding your roof orientation and pitch:
                            • Go on Google maps where your house is
                            • Switch to satellite view so you can clearly see the picture of your roof, and see what roof sides face south or are the closest to south.
                            • Estimate the approximate orientation angle of the most south facing roof side(s). A south facing roof is oriented 180 deg from north. If you don't have a pure south side but have both a south east and a south west, estimate angle for both.
                            • Estimate the pitch of your roof which is the angle between horizontal and your roof slope (between 0 /horizontal and 90degre/vertical). An average low pitch is 20 degrees.
                          • Figuring the production capacity of your roof:
                            • Go to the PVwatts site: https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/
                            • Enter your complete address and hit GO
                            • Once location found, click "Go to System info" on the Top right
                            • In DC system size, put 5 (kW)
                            • Module type: Premium
                            • In Tilt deg: enter your estimated roof pitch estimated above
                            • In Azimuth deg: Enter the estimated orientation of your roof side that is the closest to south facing (180 deg) use the side closest to south
                            • Click Go to PVWatts results at the top right
                            • Check the Annual Energy for the AC Energy (kWh) Column
                            • Compare that to what you wanted to cover (ie 9000 kWh)
                            • If it is too low or too high, click "Go to System" Info at the top left to go back to the previous page, and change the DC system size to try and get closer to the proper production.
                            • Do the back and forth until you get the annual kWh production you want. Or do the math. ie: if 5kW array produces 8000kWh per year and you need 9000kWh, the array you need is 5 x (9000/8000) = 5.625 kW
                            • Now you know the Power of the solar Array your need which is the DC system size, Like for example 5.625 kW

                          Finding approximately how many Panels you will need
                          • Use the Array DC power calculated above like 5.625 kW or 5625W and divide by an individual solar panel power. Panels exist in many different power like roughly between 280W to 350W. The more power per panel (high efficiency panel), usually the more expensive per watt.
                          • If you have a lot of unobstructed roof surface, you can choose lower power panels as they are cheaper per watt
                          • If you don't have a lot of unobstructed roof surface, you may need to use higher power panel, so you need less panels to match your required array power.
                          • For example, reaching 5625W would require 20 x 280W panels, or 19 x 300W panels, or 16 x 350W panels.
                          • If you cannot reach your needed array power with one roof side, you may need to consider several arrays on different roof sides. You can use PVwatts site to figure out the production capacity of each roof orientation. Ultimately, drawing the exact size of each roof area and checking how many panels they can hold will be required. A complicating factor is that the fire code in your area may require a certain space to be left free for firemen in case of a fire.

                          Backup power needed during an outage.
                          • You can make an estimate of what you would wish to power during an outage, knowing that ultimately the system / battery chosen will be the limiting factor of what you can actually power during an outage (critical loads).
                          • Make a list of the loads you wish to cover, their peak power consumption, and their continuous consumption as well as how many hours they would be used in a 24H period.
                          For example
                          Loads_____________Surge (W) __Continuous (W) ______Hours/24H _______Consumption/24h
                          Lights (10 4W leds) ___40______________40______________5______________ 200 Wh
                          Fridge_____________400_____________200____________ _12_____________2400 Wh
                          Sum Pump_________1200_____________700_____________2___ __________1400 Wh
                          TV Modem router____150_____________150_____________6_______ _______900 Wh
                          Gas furnace fan _____600_____________600_____________4____________ _2400 Wh

                          Total surge power needed: 2390 W
                          Total continuous power needed: 1690 W
                          24h consumption: 7300 Wh

                          The 24h consumption is a valuable information, as in an outage, during the day, your panels will recharge the battery as well as provide power. PVWatts can show you the min and max daily production of your array, so you know what to expect.
                          For example, my array would produce between 13 kWh to 43 kWh in a single day so if my critical loads consume less than 13 kWh per 24 hours, I know I am covered.

                          All these are just examples, you would need to check you actual appliances' power requirements, or search average values on the web
                          • Based on the Equipment solution proposed you can see if your critical loads can be realistically covered or not. For example, the Pika Energy Harbor Flex will support 4.5 kW of continuous load and 6.7 kW of surge (and 5.6 kW for an hour)
                          To be continued...
                          Last edited by scrambler; 03-11-2019, 10:51 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Here is the second part of the post.

                            I recently decided to look for a solar configuration that would give me 100% coverage of my 8000 kWh per year, as well as let me use the solar array in case of an outage and power my critical loads (Fridge, furnace, Sum pump, Internet TV and lights).
                            I knew I needed a system that included a battery backup, and was willing to pay a little more for a lithium Ion battery, for space and duration consideration. I am also in an area where I would get both 30% fed tax credit, and an SGIP subsidy based on the price of the battery that should be a couple of thousand dollars.

                            What I found is that in my area, Installers will mainly offer one of three potential solutions for grid-tied with Li-ion battery backup.
                            Solaredge/ LG Chem battery, Pika Energy, and Sonnen
                            I find Sonnen way too expensive for what it is, so I am looking at either the Solaredge Storedge paired with the LG Resu10H battery, or the Pika Energy solution.
                            https://www.solaredge.com/sites/defa...tasheet_na.pdf
                            https://www.pika-energy.com/

                            The Pika Energy solution is a bit more expensive, but does have some interesting pluses for my situation.
                            • Better integration of all the components for a simpler installation and a simpler user interface for the various available modes
                            • Modular battery allowing you to start with as little as 3 modules (8.6kWh usable) and add later for up to 6 modules (17.1 kWh usable)
                            • Uses One PV Link per string (set of multiple panels) instead of one Power optimizer per panel. This is a disadvantage if you have a lot of individual panels shading issues, or a plus if you have no shading issues, as you have less risk of equipment failure. Power optimizers allow a drop of power output of an individual panel not to affect the production of the other panels, but they are known to fail...

                            More details on the various components
                            Pika list of documentation
                            https://www.pika-energy.com/installer-resources/


                            I am still getting quotes, so in the end it will depend if I can find an installer that does not vastly overprice the whole system as many tends to do in my neck of the woods

                            Comment


                            • #15


                              Understanding the factors that impact PV system performance is crucial. Three major factors are:

                              -Temperature
                              -The amount of sun "peak hours" seasonally and regionally
                              -The efficiency of your inverter and/or charge controller.

                              The products which are reliable are:
                              Grid-tie with Battery Backup cost up-to $6-10 per watt or $6,000 - $10,000 per KW
                              Grid-tie w/out Batteries cost up-to $4-6 per watt or $4,000 - $6,000 per KW
                              Off Grid/ Stand alone cost up-to $9-$15+ per watt or $9,000 - $15,000+ per KW
                              PV Direct cost up-to more than $2/watt

                              Mod note: Please stop posting this kind of stuff, I'm tired of deleting it. You've just joined, so join in the discussions if you like, but please stop posting unhelpful nonsense and stop with the advertising links.
                              Last edited by sdold; 03-12-2019, 01:48 AM.

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