PowerJack grid tied inverters, worth a damn?

[electricsuperduty]

This is the only question that needs to be answered. Any premisses power source has to be hard wired and inaccessible to the general public. Otherwise imagine all the receptacles in you home if they were male instead of female. Let your kids lick that. Come to thank of that might be a good idea. There would be a lot less stupid people around.

As a former voting member of the NEC code making panel rest assured a Plug-N-Play grid tied inverter will ever be approved. Let me take that one step further: Will never be proposed or discussed. So forget about it, is not ever going to happen. That is why there will never be a UL plug in inverter in the USA. The UL would not even accept the application for testing. So end of discussion.

I'll put this in my never say never file

[electricsuperduty]

I'll make some vids to show how it's done
My hearts not broken my system work very well
It's just irks me when "the professionals" get the attitude nothing can go any further. I know, I Was bad about that once too

[russ]

Some sure do get broken hearted when some wild off the wall scheme isn't acceptable to the system.

The system is there for a reason and normally a good reason. UL/electric code/ fire protection codes etc fall into this class.

Forget the 'uppity', 'progressive', 'anti-progressive' and other labels - they simply show intolerance to any view point except the PC one according to the one applying label.

[Sunking]

2. Who said it would be against code if they were made to be up to code.

This is the only question that needs to be answered. Any premisses power source has to be hard wired and inaccessible to the general public. Otherwise imagine all the receptacles in you home if they were male instead of female. Let your kids lick that. Come to thank of that might be a good idea. There would be a lot less stupid people around.

As a former voting member of the NEC code making panel rest assured a Plug-N-Play grid tied inverter will ever be approved. Let me take that one step further: Will never be proposed or discussed. So forget about it, is not ever going to happen. That is why there will never be a UL plug in inverter in the USA. The UL would not even accept the application for testing. So end of discussion.

[inetdog]

State your case instead of blastering.


1. What are the objections if there is island Protection.
2. Who said it would be against code if they were made to be up to code.
3. Sales, that's a tough one, China is full of liars. Thats why US made is important.

Statement of case:

1a. There are multiple strategies for island protection, some of which work well and some of which will fail in case of very precise non-resistive load situations. It is not clear (since not objectively tested) whether the island protection in these units meets the requirements of the National Electrical Code and power utility.
1b. Since these units are not UL tested, there is high likelihood that some units will fail and emit smoke and/or fire, causing problems within your island. Component failures of this sort can also compromise the islanding protection.
2. If they were made up to code, they would not be plug-in connected, since the code only allows inspected hard-wired connections.
The anti-islanding, short-circuit protection, and other necessary features could easily be compromised by plugging the unit into an incorrectly wired outlet.
3. No comment....

[electricsuperduty]

I have no idea what 'blastering' might mean and I can only guess you have zero electric background.

Island protection is one part - back feeding a circuit is another.

The US holds it's own in selling junk that is useless - there is legal protection for the buyer though which helps. Much of the junk sold on online auctions (fleabay etc) should never be sold - probably similar for flea markets.

You don't understand the word code - that is the first problem. Sunking can better explain that if he will.

None of the junk you are referring to is UL listed - how to use it connected to your home electric system?

OMG, Blastering...take a guess.

Code....a big scary word used by the up-ity ( if you know what I mean by Up-ity) probably not. I have codes in my area of expertise, so I know they are giudelines for methods and safety...how's that for not understanding. Still need Sunkings help to explain that to me?


Up-ity. A word of description used to define a people group who think they know more than you do, so they tend to look down upon others.

Forget it.....sorry I came into YOUR CHAT ROOM.

[russ]

State your case instead of blastering.
1. What are the objections if there is island Protection.
2. Who said it would be against code if they were made to be up to code.
3. Sales, that's a tough one, China is full of liars. Thats why US made is important.

I have no idea what 'blastering' might mean and I can only guess you have zero electric background.

Island protection is one part - back feeding a circuit is another.

The US holds it's own in selling junk that is useless - there is legal protection for the buyer though which helps. Much of the junk sold on online auctions (fleabay etc) should never be sold - probably similar for flea markets.

You don't understand the word code - that is the first problem. Sunking can better explain that if he will.

None of the junk you are referring to is UL listed - how to use it connected to your home electric system?

[electricsuperduty]

That is just plain ole silly. No way can the USA compete with China, Mexico, and India.

As is the entire Solar Industry

If there's a market, someone will fill it, someone will buy it.

[electricsuperduty]

You really have no understanding of what the objections to the 'plug in to a socket and back feed' inverters are.

The forum does not in any way support the concept when it against code, law and acceptable practice.

They are not made in the US because they do not meet code - a small matter of legal liabilities. The ones sold on fleabay and such are buying a 'pig in a poke' as you have no idea what you are getting. You simply have the assurance of the sales person that they are good. To the sales person that is correct as every sale puts bucks in their pocket with zero recourse for the buyer.

State your case instead of blastering.
1. What are the objections if there is island Protection.
2. Who said it would be against code if they were made to be up to code.
3. Sales, that's a tough one, China is full of liars. Thats why US made is important.

[Sunking]

To answer your Forum question, everyone else just went off on how you cant or should not, I think they should be Legal as long as Island Protection is there. Then we would get higher quality inverters and JOBS to build them in USA.

That is just plain ole silly. No way can the USA compete with China, Mexico, and India.

[russ]

I have used a 300 watt with island protection.
It did work, but you need the correct gauge wire to transmit 110 to the grid (house) or watts will fall in half.

I dont see any problem with using these as a suppliment. If there was one bult in USA would be better.

To answer your Forum question, everyone else just went off on how you cant or should not, I think they should be Legal as long as Island Protection is there. Then we would get higher quality inverters and JOBS to build them in USA.

You really have no understanding of what the objections to the 'plug in to a socket and back feed' inverters are.

The forum does not in any way support the concept when it against code, law and acceptable practice.

They are not made in the US because they do not meet code - a small matter of legal liabilities. The ones sold on fleabay and such are buying a 'pig in a poke' as you have no idea what you are getting. You simply have the assurance of the sales person that they are good. To the sales person that is correct as every sale puts bucks in their pocket with zero recourse for the buyer.

[electricsuperduty]

Hi there, I was just wondering if anyone has used these and weather or not hey worked well for you. It would be to make AC for a wood shop. Thanks!

I have used a 300 watt with island protection.
It did work, but you need the correct gauge wire to transmit 110 to the grid (house) or watts will fall in half.

I dont see any problem with using these as a suppliment. If there was one bult in USA would be better.

To answer your Forum question, everyone else just went off on how you cant or should not, I think they should be Legal as long as Island Protection is there. Then we would get higher quality inverters and JOBS to build them in USA.

[billvon]

Yeah I am just trying to run One air conditioner off of solar, just for the hell of it mainly, and to show people a real practical application of solar.

If you want to do this, give something like this a try:

Sanyo mini-split AC set to a small temp differential (about a 300 watt draw)
Prosine 1000 watt (ok) or 1800 watt (better) inverter (24V)
860 watts PV (4 215-watt Kyocera KD215GX-LPU's)
Blue Sky Energy SB3048 charge controller
200AH / 24V battery bank (4 T105's are a fairly cheap way to go here)
The usual BOS stuff (breakers, cabling etc)

If you monitor such a system carefully and use it only when you have the solar to use it (i.e. don't rely on the battery to do much once the sun goes down) you could have a pretty good demo application for under $5K.

[Sunking]

Just trying to run one ac unit can't possibly be this hard.

Willing to bet $10 on it? It is not hard, just very hard on the wallet.

Here is an example let's say you live in Ashville NC, have a 1 ton window shaker of 12,000 BTU capacity (1-ton with a SEER of 10), want to run it from May 1 to September 31, 10 hours per day.Here is what it would take:

Panel wattage = 4000 watts
Battery capacity = 60 Kwh @ 48 volts 1250 Amp Hours.
80 Amp MPPT Charge Controller
3000 watt Sine Wave Inverter.

Just for the listed components will cost you around $16,000. Based on NC average Kwh cost of 13-cents the system will generate about $1.50 of electricity per day. So are you ready to sign up to win my $10 bet. I suggest you just send me my $10 because I just saved you thousands of dollars.

[KillerWatts]

The oxygen in the air eats out the metal (aluminun) coating (the invisible front metal that collects the power from the entire surface of the cell) and moisture (water vapor) gets in there and then Galvanic Action takes care of the rest. Very few things block water vapor, the DOW resin mentioned earlier makes no mention of it's moisture resistance. That's notable. Tedlar does have a printed spec for water vapor resistance. (it's very good, and what most panels use on the backside) Plexiglass, polycarbonate, epoxys, paint, silicon sealer, wood, all leak lots of water vapor. Glass and metals don't.


We are trying to make you aware of the issues we are knowlaable about, so that a year down the road, you don't talk about solar being a BS rip-off and you lost a lot of $$

How far is it, to get power to your shop ? Maybe it's time to work up a spreadsheet, and put in:
2 generators (one to run, one to be broken)
Small generator, inverter/charger, small battery
Small generator, inverter/charger, small battery, Solar PV, charge controller.
Cost of materals & labor to pull power to shop and $1 daily for power

A generator can keep a battery charged, and run tools at the same time.
An inverter has to be large enough to supply a tool motor starting surge. That's going to cost.

We're not saying it can't be done, my shop/house was about $80K away from street side power, and now it's got $75K of solar gear there for all the normal stuff. Welder, well pump, house, saws, kitchen and laundry..... But it's not cheap. (but I'm "sticking it to the man").

Yeah I am just trying to run One air conditioner off of solar, just for the hell of it mainly, and to show people a real practical application of solar. The rest of my shop will be on grid. It is next to my other shop and I ran 240 to it the other day for my compressor. Just trying to run one ac unit can't possibly be this hard.