Phono warranty - any experience with any warranty?

[desmo907]

I posted before about my panel (2) issues - here is a recap:

My system was installed by Ross Solar (in CT; now owned by ConEdison) in 2012. I have 21 Phono Onyx 235-270 (dark) panels and 21 enPhase M215 micros (5.25kw system). Weeks ago I noticed 2 panels were about 65% production of the others. enPhase said the micros were skipping and sent me 2 new micros. I had to hire some guys to install them but the panels are still under-producing. enPhase and some other solar experts indicate that it it is a bad panel [s] and most likely a bad diode (they think a diode controls each 1/3 of the panel). That may make sense as both panels are about 1/3 under production (so are still producing 2/3 power of the others).

I finally heard from someone at ConEd but they were not sure if the diodes were encapsulated or not and he advised me to contact Phono about the warranty. I called SUMEC (parent company) and they had a voice message directing solar customers to a call a guy in TX. I called the guy in TX and he said he was no longer with them and gave me a guy in CA who I finally talked to. He had me email him and someone else (in China) the issue, photos, serial numbers, specs, contract, etc. . The guy in China emails me back verifying that their engineers also believe it is a bad diode and he also sent me PowerPoint slides (a few slides) with some text about how bird poop, leaves, shade, snow, etc. can impact a panel. They included some pictures also. (The original guy in CA also thought it may be bad diodes and mentioned all their new panels are 330w, etc.). I emailed back indicating "OK, how do we proceed with the warranty" and noted that my panels stay clean, and there is no shade, etc.

I just wonder if i am getting the run-around here.... thoughts? Depending on what they say/do I wonder if I have an option with any State Consumer Protection agency, etc.

Also I do worry about any replacements [physically] matching my current panels (I have 3 rows of 7 panels, and 1 is an end panel on the top row but the other is 1 in from the end on the middle row). I was actually trying to find any places (websites) that may have old stock as I wonder if SUMEC would even have the older panels. I assume a 330w would be ok with my enPhase, and system configuration but I rather they match. I am losing just a little production but I have been able (with little a/c use in summer) to cover 100% of my electric needs all year. I also thought (depending on SUMEC's response) that maybe I get a 3rd replacement and have all the newer panels on the end of the rows.

Thoughts?
Thx!

[Mike90250]

You get to deal with the warranty with whoever the insurer says you deal with. It's going to be an uphill battle. Sorry

[peakbagger]

Its highly likely at best is you get a check. Highly doubtful they will have identical spares in the warehouse. Your best shot is keep an eye out for used panels on Ebay. Note even used panels from a different batch may have some color variation compared to your panels.

More than a few of us that buy panels from bankrupt company's or old stock buy a spare or two. Panel are so cheap these days and the potential for one getting damaged on the array over 20 plus years is high so having a spare is good idea.

[bcroe]

You might try switching micros between panels, and see if the problem stays with the
panel or the micro. Having established that, check panel current (clamp on ammeter)
for differences. OK but power down, check voltage, I use 3 way MC4s inserted at
night for meter access. Also check temp variations across the panel cell groups, I
use a non contact infrared sensor. With a bypass situation, check out the bypass
diodes. Removing a shorted diode will allow unshaded operation, replace to deal
with shade. good luck, Bruce Roe

ClmpOnAmm.JPGThermalGauge.JPGPVtaps.jpg

[bob-n]

Yes, it sounds like a run-around. The law is on your side and you have quite a bit of data to prove it. Be determined, and eventually, they will have to do something to get you off their backs. I don't know what Connecticut has for small claims courts or consumer protection agencies, but that would be a possible avenue of last resort. Another possible tactic is to get a lawyer to write a letter on law-office stationary threatening to take them to court for repair costs, replacement costs and legal fees. That should scare the heck out of them.

As you said, you'll never get exact matching panels but should be able to get something relatively close. As peakbagger said, if they offer you money, you might want to take it and be done with them.

The Enphase microinverters will work with newer panels. The panel may have the capability to produce more energy than the Enphase can handle. In that case, the Enphase will simply put out it's maximum rating.

[desmo907]

Thanks for the advice. I called my SUMEC/Phono contact (as they didn't respond to email yet) and he said he will check with his China partner......as their reply was vague.

Also does it matter if i replace the panels with another manufacturer? Does watts and/or mono/poly matter?

I have Phono Onyx 235-270 (dark) panels (mono). I was thinking to get 3 replacements (maybe more watts) and replace the bad ones (2) and 1 other, and move them all to the end for aesthetic purposes (if they don't match the Phono completely they may look better on the end of the 3 rows -- 7 in each row). (I would then have 1 spare Phono.)


Thoughts?

[bob-n]

The microinverter doesn't know whether it's poly or mono, low power or high power, brand, etc. It justs squeezes as many watts from it as it can and puts out 240VAC into the pool of power.

If you get a 96-cell panel, however, then you will have problems. Panasonic has some new panels that are 96 cells and they will produce too much voltage for your existing Enphase micros. But any 60-cell (like your Onyx) panels are electrically compatible with the Enphase. If you get a high power panel that puts out more than the Enphase can handle, the Enphase will simply limit output to max on those rare bright-sun days. The rest of the time (morning, evening, rainy day, etc.), you get the benefit of the better panel, so it's still worth getting higher power panels.

Your panels are 1640mm x 992mm x 45mm. Try to match X & Y dimensions as closely as you can. You're going to have a hard time finding new panels 45mm thick, so you might have to settle for 35mm or 40mm thick panels. What's a few millimeters among friends?

Black panels are fairly common, but not all panels are black. Those dimensions will limit you to 60-cell panels. 72 cell panels are two cell dimensions (~12") longer.

I assume that you've confirmed that the problem is not in the microinverter. It would be a real shame to do all of this and then learn that you didn't fix the problem. The simplest way to absolutely confirm this is to swap two panels (one good and one bad) and confirm that the problem moves with the panels.

[desmo907]

Thanks.
I had a guy install the 2 new micros enPhase sent me, and had the same issue. Figuring the new micros were not both bad I never swapped panels (I didn't want to pay the guys again). (I wish enPhase told me this when I had the guys on the roof swapping in new micros.) But given the 65% production is sounds like a bad diode in each panel and Phono confirmed.

I have emailed a few suppliers online (for exact match) and await word from Phono.
CT Consumer protection division said they may be able to help me if SUMEC/Phone fail to honor the warranty.

I assume that if the panels are not as thick the standard clamps will still work (taking liberty with "standard"). Seems they lock down 2 panels (each edge). I can get a photo if needed.

[bob-n]

That settles it. It must be panels.

I'm not sure about the panel clamps. There are different styles. The ones that I know are matched to the panel thickness.

If you wind up getting new 35mm panels, my suggestion is to get some 10mm or 3/8" thick aluminum to shim the new panel to the right height. Perhaps you could bolt the 10mm aluminum to the bottom of the panel with SS screws and SS nuts before installing, like the sketch below. That would lift the panel to the same height as the others and be hardly noticable. I show 2" x 6" x 3/8" as the shim size, but the only critical dimension is the thickness. I show the shims offset but they could be perfectly matched to the panel frame width. The length needs to be longer than the rail width to accomodate installation.
retrofit3.jpg

[PVAndy]

I posted before about my panel (2) issues - here is a recap:

My system was installed by Ross Solar (in CT; now owned by ConEdison) in 2012. I have 21 Phono Onyx 235-270 (dark) panels and 21 enPhase M215 micros (5.25kw system). Weeks ago I noticed 2 panels were about 65% production of the others. enPhase said the micros were skipping and sent me 2 new micros. I had to hire some guys to install them but the panels are still under-producing. enPhase and some other solar experts indicate that it it is a bad panel [s] and most likely a bad diode (they think a diode controls each 1/3 of the panel). That may make sense as both panels are about 1/3 under production (so are still producing 2/3 power of the others).

I finally heard from someone at ConEd but they were not sure if the diodes were encapsulated or not and he advised me to contact Phono about the warranty. I called SUMEC (parent company) and they had a voice message directing solar customers to a call a guy in TX. I called the guy in TX and he said he was no longer with them and gave me a guy in CA who I finally talked to. He had me email him and someone else (in China) the issue, photos, serial numbers, specs, contract, etc. . The guy in China emails me back verifying that their engineers also believe it is a bad diode and he also sent me PowerPoint slides (a few slides) with some text about how bird poop, leaves, shade, snow, etc. can impact a panel. They included some pictures also. (The original guy in CA also thought it may be bad diodes and mentioned all their new panels are 330w, etc.). I emailed back indicating "OK, how do we proceed with the warranty" and noted that my panels stay clean, and there is no shade, etc.

I just wonder if i am getting the run-around here.... thoughts? Depending on what they say/do I wonder if I have an option with any State Consumer Protection agency, etc.

Also I do worry about any replacements [physically] matching my current panels (I have 3 rows of 7 panels, and 1 is an end panel on the top row but the other is 1 in from the end on the middle row). I was actually trying to find any places (websites) that may have old stock as I wonder if SUMEC would even have the older panels. I assume a 330w would be ok with my enPhase, and system configuration but I rather they match. I am losing just a little production but I have been able (with little a/c use in summer) to cover 100% of my electric needs all year. I also thought (depending on SUMEC's response) that maybe I get a 3rd replacement and have all the newer panels on the end of the rows.

Thoughts?
Thx!

Hi, I'm the Engineering Manager for ConEd solutions, I was unable to locate your case in our service log. If you send me an email, I will personally make sure we work to resolve your issues.

I talked to all our service techs and service administrators and was unable to locate a case resembling yours.

You can send me an email at mayshara@conedceb.com

Andy

[Ampster]

.... I will personally make sure we work to resolve your issues.
......

[peakbagger]

FYI, shimming or otherwise altering the mounting system most likely voids the engineering approvals of the mounting system unless shimming is specifically allowed by the original manufacturer. That means that if the system fails, the insurance company does not have to pay to fix it. Its likely that new racking designed for the different depth panels would need to be installed unless the original manufacturer offers specific brackets designed for the different form factor panels.

[bob-n]

Peakbagger is correct. Allow me to completely withdraw my recommendation.

It's a matter of exact wording and interpretation whether adding shims to a thin panel makes it a thick panel or constitutes a prohibited modification. In the very least, it gives manufacturers and insurance companies an excuse.

Until we heard from ConEd (thank you PVAndy!), I was strongly doubting the value of the warranty and support.