Should I upgrade my Solaredge 7600HD to the 10,000HD?

[traxxi2003]

Hello everyone! Im in need of some honest advice regarding if i should upgrade my Solaredge 7600HD inverter. The reason I'm contemplating replacing the inverter for the larger Solaredge 10,000HD is due to the excess amount of clipping. Right now my system starts clipping from 11:30AM - 16:00. I believe I should upgrade for the following reasons; 1. clipping (wasted energy production, 2. have a cooler running inverter, 3. Increase power prodcution since my PV system should be able to maxime power output of the larger inverter. because At this time of the year my daily production is around 72kwh per day. If my understanding of how these inverters work and given the size of my PV system I should be able to average between 80-85kwh provided my PV system can maximize power output of the larger SE 10,000HD inverter. What you all think?

Below are some specs on my system:

-Solaredge Inverter 7600HD
-Gigawatts 300watts panel x36 for a total 10,800 watts system.
-Solaredge P370 PV Optimizers

I purchased and self-installed my system last October, i purchase my system from GoGreenSolar in CA.

[ButchDeal]

There are big changes usually going above the 7.6kW inverter, but before you even get into that.
How are you determining the difference in production of 72kWh to 80-85kWh? is 8-13kWh more worth the trouble?
Is your whole array facing the same azimuth? unshaded?
Since you have it up now can you show some graphs of the clipping and layout?

[J.P.M.]

I might have started w/ a larger inverter, but before I changed out inverters now, I'd start by at least thinking about ways to live with a few less kWh for a few % of the year (increase your thermostat setting). Even if you don't eliminate the clipping that way, you might reduce your annual load by the same amount or more.

BTW, since you installed last Oct., do you know if you have excess annual production ? How did you model the system for annual production ? If you did plan for excess production, that may well take up some/all of the clipping.

To run the inverter cooler, I rigged a fan to mine. Knocked about 1/3 of the temp. diff. inverter to amb. temp. out of it. The van draws 40 W or so for ~ 5 hrs. ~ 180 days/yr.

Run PVWatts and get the hourly output option. Look at some hourly/daily output numbers for a SWAG of what your daily max. output might be for a dart throw at how much clipping you might be experiencing.

I'd sure get better numbers before I thought about changing inverters.

My guess is it'll be a while to payback on the cost of the changeout.

[emartin00]

If you replace the inverter, you will have to increase the wire size from the inverter to the main panel, and most likely increase the breaker size.
If you increase the breaker size, you will have to make sure you are not now violating the 120% rule.

If you're good on those fronts, you want to look at it financially. Is the increased production going to cover the cost of a new inverter?

[JSchnee21]

The upgrade will most likely not be cost effective -- unless you can get the installer to eat some of the cost based on a poor system design. I suggest you sign up for Solar Edge Site Designer, and model your system with both the 7600kW and 10000kW inverters to get a real feel for the production loses. You can also use PVWatts. Then evaluate this based on your cost per kW from your PoCo and the inpact of your TOU situation.

As others have said, since you live in CA, you most likely have a LOAD SIDE tap. That is to say, you have an input breaker for the inverter in your home's breaker panel. You most likely have 200amp service. Based on the 120% rule and the busbars in your load center -- YOU CANNOT -- upgrade to a larger inverter.

UNLESS you:
1) upgrade your panel to 400amps
2) derate your input breaker to ~150amps
3) get an act of congress from your AHJ for a line side tap. In other parts of the country, for larger inverters, the line between your PoCo meter and the MAINS input breaker of your load center is intercepted (or more commonly "spliced" with a clamp on gizmo). But in California, line side taps seem to be a major no-no. No idea / rationale as to why.

Sorry, just saw the self install.

Also, if you you upgrade your inverter you'll need to re-do / amend your AHJ permits and PoCo interconnect agreements. Not to mention the electric work, and inverter purchase.

[nwdiver]

Hello everyone! Im in need of some honest advice regarding if i should upgrade my Solaredge 7600HD inverter. The reason I'm contemplating replacing the inverter for the larger Solaredge 10,000HD is due to the excess amount of clipping. Right now my system starts clipping from 11:30AM - 16:00. I believe I should upgrade for the following reasons; 1. clipping (wasted energy production, 2. have a cooler running inverter, 3. Increase power prodcution since my PV system should be able to maxime power output of the larger inverter. because At this time of the year my daily production is around 72kwh per day. If my understanding of how these inverters work and given the size of my PV system I should be able to average between 80-85kwh provided my PV system can maximize power output of the larger SE 10,000HD inverter. What you all think?

Below are some specs on my system:

-Solaredge Inverter 7600HD
-Gigawatts 300watts panel x36 for a total 10,800 watts system.
-Solaredge P370 PV Optimizers

I purchased and self-installed my system last October, i purchase my system from GoGreenSolar in CA.

I have 10.7kW of solar on a 8kW inverter. I'm ok with that.

[traxxi2003]

There are big changes usually going above the 7.6kW inverter, but before you even get into that.
How are you determining the difference in production of 72kWh to 80-85kWh? is 8-13kWh more worth the trouble?
Is your whole array facing the same azimuth? unshaded?
Since you have it up now can you show some graphs of the clipping and layout?

Please forgive me if Im wrong in my reasoning here, Im probably missing an important factor and Im probably very optimistic here. But here I go! First lets assume that my PV system (10.8KW) will be able to drive a SE 10k HD inverter to its max output which would be 10.0KW. If that is the case that means that during my daily 5 hrs of constant clipping with the 7600HD inverter I am wasting (10KW -7.6KW= 2.4KW per hour of clipping for a total of 12KW per day or 360KW per month . Between April and August I could potentially be wasting 1,800KW of solar energy. Again this would only hold true assuming that i can make the larger inverter produce at or near its max output. See picture below of how much clipping my system is doing.

[traxxi2003]

I might have started w/ a larger inverter, but before I changed out inverters now, I'd start by at least thinking about ways to live with a few less kWh for a few % of the year (increase your thermostat setting). Even if you don't eliminate the clipping that way, you might reduce your annual load by the same amount or more.

BTW, since you installed last Oct., do you know if you have excess annual production ? How did you model the system for annual production ? If you did plan for excess production, that may well take up some/all of the clipping.

To run the inverter cooler, I rigged a fan to mine. Knocked about 1/3 of the temp. diff. inverter to amb. temp. out of it. The van draws 40 W or so for ~ 5 hrs. ~ 180 days/yr.

Run PVWatts and get the hourly output option. Look at some hourly/daily output numbers for a SWAG of what your daily max. output might be for a dart throw at how much clipping you might be experiencing.

I'd sure get better numbers before I thought about changing inverters.

My guess is it'll be a while to payback on the cost of the changeout.

J.P.M, thank you for your response! I was wondering if you could share more details as to how you added a fan to your inverter. I would like to do the same but cannot find any useful information on how to do it. What fan did you use? Would you be willing to post some pictures if is not to much trouble?
Thank you! About excess production you ask? Well I'm currently carrying a $1,500 credit with SCE and with the A/C set at 68 during the day and 65 at night I'm still selling back about 60% out of my daily production.

[traxxi2003]

Well.......... first allow me to express my gratitud to all of you for taking the time to respond to my question. After pluggin in some number on the PVWatts calculator the numbers don't lie. Yes, there is some A/C incresed productivity to be had (1,600kwh increase per year). That being said, the potential cost of the whole thing makes upgrading the system pointless.One of you brought up a really good point that I had failed to consider, the cost associated with having to ammend the city permitts in order to be allowed to upgrade. That alone makes it not worth my time. So; I'll be keeping my 7600HD inverter for now. I just need to figure out how to add a fan in order to make run cooler. Heat and electronics do not mix, It hurts looking at the Inverter screen temp reading get as high as 187 degrees during the day.There was a lot of really good information shared on this thread, I really appreciate each and everyone of you for contributing. Happy 4th Julyto all of you!!

Sincerly,
Jose

[ButchDeal]

Please forgive me if Im wrong in my reasoning here, Im probably missing an important factor and Im probably very optimistic here. But here I go! First lets assume that my PV system (10.8KW) will be able to drive a SE 10k HD inverter to its max output which would be 10.0KW.

Not very often and only if all the solar is facing the same direction and unshaded

If that is the case that means that during my daily 5 hrs of constant clipping with the 7600HD inverter I am wasting (10KW -7.6KW= 2.4KW per hour of clipping for a total of 12KW per day or 360KW per month .

Nope, as you can see in your photo of the production curve, it is a CURVE, the production ramps up and then back down so it is not a constant amount that would be produced during that clipping period. In fact for a few minutes at the beginiing and end there is just a few wh being clipped....

Between April and August I could potentially be wasting 1,800KW of solar energy. Again this would only hold true assuming that i can make the larger inverter produce at or near its max output. See picture below of how much clipping my system is doing.

you MAY be able to drive the 10kW inverter up to 10kW but if that is the case with only 10.8kW of solar going in, then it would only be the case for a short period of time on a very few days most likely days in winter on cold clear days with some wind, not heat of summer.

[J.P.M.]

J.P.M, thank you for your response! I was wondering if you could share more details as to how you added a fan to your inverter. I would like to do the same but cannot find any useful information on how to do it. What fan did you use? Would you be willing to post some pictures if is not to much trouble?
Thank you! About excess production you ask? Well I'm currently carrying a $1,500 credit with SCE and with the A/C set at 68 during the day and 65 at night I'm still selling back about 60% out of my daily production.

You are welcome.

Some real cheap and REAL redneck engineering.

I'm out of town just now, but some sketchy details:

My inverter ( a rebadged 5 kW PowerOne) is in the garage and has cooling fins - no fan - arranged vertically. The inverter screen says the inverter temp. sensor runs ~ 30 C. warmer than the garage ambient temp. +/- a couple of degrees or so with natural convection (no fan) cooling ). Before I got fancy and involved, I put a window fan beneath the inverter to see if it made any sense to use forced convection to pull out more heat. The window fan, firing up and running on high, has a running current draw of ~ 80 W and reduces the delta T, inverter sensor to gar. ambient from ~ 30 C to ~ 18 C when the inverter output was ~ 4 kW - 5 kW. The fan running on med., draws ~ 43 W and reduces that Delta T from 30 C to ~ 20 C. The garage max. high temp. is ~ 35 - 38 C in the summer, but usually close to outside ambient temp. I've also got inlet/outlet temps. for the air running through/past the cooling fins.

I spent a fair portion of an engineering career designing industrial boilers and other heat transfer equipment.

FWIW, I don't believe the inverter efficiency increases in any way I can measure by running cooler by virtue of any additional cooling from the fan. In terms of cooling the temp.

Looking at the temps., running on high vs. med. the better option is to run on med. I haven't noticed a change in temps. over the last 5 years of operation. I inspect the cooling fins ~ 1X/yr. They do not seem to increase in fouling or lose cooling ability because of the increased air flow, but that may be because I take the cover off and wipe the fins after inspection.

I'll never get the 40 W back in increased system efficiency, but I may help keep the inverter more trouble free by running a bit cooler. Hard to quantify as I've no data on reliability/MTBF vs. operating temp. reduction.

Anyway, I didn't have cost effectiveness as the biggest goal when I designed the system. If I did, I'd never have used Sunpower - good stuff but unjustifiable when compared to equal quality/reliability but less costly equipment, and doubly so because my usage is low enough and that, combined with tiered rates (which I can and intend to stay on) keep my average LCOE per kWh for POCO power lower than the LCOE of PV power even if I had used non Sunpower equipment. I got my PV for reasons other than cost effectiveness.

[Mike90250]

....... I just need to figure out how to add a fan in order to make run cooler.......Jose

I simply got a timer and a desk fan. Aim fan at inverter. set timer to run from 10am - 3pm (or whenever) You don't want to burn power in the 50W fan that you don't need to.

[J.P.M.]

I simply got a timer and a desk fan. Aim fan at inverter. set timer to run from 10am - 3pm (or whenever) You don't want to burn power in the 50W fan that you don't need to.

Unless it's a fan that will clear a desk of all paper etc., I doubt a desk fan will produce any noticeable effect.

Reason: Too little mass movement.

For my Rube Goldberg setup, what I guess starts out as ~ 500 or so CFM coming out of the window size box fan as free air flow blowing toward and longitudinally over the fins of my 5kW inverter, about 50 or 60 CFM of it flows past the fins. That flow extracts maybe 50 W or so of heat from the fins (~ 1/3 of ~ 3% of 5 kW) and thus from the inverter, or ~ 1/3 of the waste heat produced under full sun conditions.

Extrapolating down, I'd suggest a desk fan size air mover might produce about the same effect as a fart in a whirlwind. Might make one feel like they are doing something, but as a practical matter, A desk fan probably won't produce much noticeable or practical effect.

[Mike90250]

WiredInverter_c.jpgMy desk fan was aimed at a fanless inverter, that had huge exposed heatsinks It worked great.. Aiming a fan at a sealed box, wont do much