LG Panels Warranty question

[J.P.M.]

Usually it is. But sometimes it's not.

Lots of people have insurance for various things, even if they don't need it legally. They get it because they want that level of protection. Now, needless to say, the insurance company almost always makes money - which means you usually lose money for any sort of insurance (including extended warranties.) But not always.

You are, of course, playing the odds. Will you get a device that works most of the time? Then the extended warranty isn't worth much. Will you get a lemon that needs replacing every 5 years? Then that warranty could pay for itself many times over. Some people like that level of certainty, that they won't be out large amounts of money if they get the lemon.

I think we may be saying about the same thing.

And while not trying to be society's big brother, I guess in a better world, I'd wish more folks were aware of how badly I truly believe they're getting screwed or screwing themselves by their own ignorance with respect to the size of the not always part you write of. I believe things don't fail anywhere near as often as those with money to make by fear mongering would lead us to believe.

[jflorey2]

Opinions vary, but like I wrote, and without putting words in your typing fingers, you seem to be in at least some agreement with, the odds and failure analysis vs. extended warranty cost to the end user will always favor the offerer. If not, way down at the end of the analysis, a simple question comes up: Why would they offer something for sale that was not to their (the offerer"s) long term benefit ?

Usually it is. But sometimes it's not.

Lots of people have insurance for various things, even if they don't need it legally. They get it because they want that level of protection. Now, needless to say, the insurance company almost always makes money - which means you usually lose money for any sort of insurance (including extended warranties.) But not always.

You are, of course, playing the odds. Will you get a device that works most of the time? Then the extended warranty isn't worth much. Will you get a lemon that needs replacing every 5 years? Then that warranty could pay for itself many times over. Some people like that level of certainty, that they won't be out large amounts of money if they get the lemon.

[J.P.M.]

Everything fails eventually. So for some people having a guarantee that the thing will be replaced if it fails within a certain time might be a good deal.

And it's not a "gold mine" for manufacturers. Manufacturers offer them because they think they can make money on the warranty - but that's not always the case. If engineering screws up and produces a lemon, such warranties can lose the manufacturer a lot of money. I have a friend of mine who _always_ gets the extended warranty, and if he has a problem, leaves no stone unturned in his quest to get the replacement. About five years back he managed to leverage an extended warranty on a car into a replacement (new) car due to a minor manufacturing defect (bad application of anti-corrosion treatment.) Pretty sure Ford lost a lot of money on that.

This is a pretty common discussion in companies that produce consumer products. An MTBF analysis shows something will last, on average, 16 years, using a baseline environment. Maybe it's due to electromigration in an IC, or the odds of exposure to static. Maybe it's due to dryout of electrolytic caps. They could fix it, of course. They could use film caps or put a clamp on every single line.

"No way jose!" says accounting. "We have to sell this thing for $19.99, not a penny more. We can't afford all that stuff. And we're already a month late with the design. Ship it!"

So they ship it. And when it comes time to decide what price they are going to charge for the extended warranty (and its term) they are going to decide that this warranty is going to be expensive - because out at 10 years they are going to see the beginning of the Gaussian curve that characterizes such failures. And no way are they going to offer a 20 year warranty. They choose a warranty price so that they will tend to make money - but it's a gamble, because MTBF analysis is far from foolproof. If the engineer was a little off, and they start seeing the caps dry out in 9 years instead of 16? They just lost a boatload of money.

All that being said, it is often not worth the price to me, because 1) the odds that I will damage it in a way that isn't covered aren't zero, 2) I tend to fix my own stuff anyway and 3) I'd much rather invest that money, then have the extra money for the occasional replacement if it comes to that. But not everyone will make the same decisions.

Opinions vary, but like I wrote, and without putting words in your typing fingers, you seem to be in at least some agreement with, the odds and failure analysis vs. extended warranty cost to the end user will always favor the offerer. If not, way down at the end of the analysis, a simple question comes up: Why would they offer something for sale that was not to their (the offerer"s) long term benefit ?

Also as you write, not everyone will make the same decision. Amen, and praise the ability to choose. But, my hunch is (and you seem to offer your own preference(s) as example) that the more informed a user is - and that doesn't necessarily mean tech or tool savvy - the less likely they are to be a buyer of extra insurance against product failure.

If, or to the degree that my opinion has any logic in it, if I was product ignorant (as I am about many things) I'd follow the lead of those who I think may know more than I do about the product.

Besides, I've been on the selling side in a prior career as a peddler. I've got some idea of the profitability of the extended warranty game. It's a gold mine and every peddler knows it.

[jflorey2]

Kind of like the odds in a casino. The house will, at the end of the day and on balance, always win. So it is with extended warranties. Ask the question: " If your product is so good, why do I need insurance against failure ? "

Everything fails eventually. So for some people having a guarantee that the thing will be replaced if it fails within a certain time might be a good deal.

And it's not a "gold mine" for manufacturers. Manufacturers offer them because they think they can make money on the warranty - but that's not always the case. If engineering screws up and produces a lemon, such warranties can lose the manufacturer a lot of money. I have a friend of mine who _always_ gets the extended warranty, and if he has a problem, leaves no stone unturned in his quest to get the replacement. About five years back he managed to leverage an extended warranty on a car into a replacement (new) car due to a minor manufacturing defect (bad application of anti-corrosion treatment.) Pretty sure Ford lost a lot of money on that.

This is a pretty common discussion in companies that produce consumer products. An MTBF analysis shows something will last, on average, 16 years, using a baseline environment. Maybe it's due to electromigration in an IC, or the odds of exposure to static. Maybe it's due to dryout of electrolytic caps. They could fix it, of course. They could use film caps or put a clamp on every single line.

"No way jose!" says accounting. "We have to sell this thing for $19.99, not a penny more. We can't afford all that stuff. And we're already a month late with the design. Ship it!"

So they ship it. And when it comes time to decide what price they are going to charge for the extended warranty (and its term) they are going to decide that this warranty is going to be expensive - because out at 10 years they are going to see the beginning of the Gaussian curve that characterizes such failures. And no way are they going to offer a 20 year warranty. They choose a warranty price so that they will tend to make money - but it's a gamble, because MTBF analysis is far from foolproof. If the engineer was a little off, and they start seeing the caps dry out in 9 years instead of 16? They just lost a boatload of money.

All that being said, it is often not worth the price to me, because 1) the odds that I will damage it in a way that isn't covered aren't zero, 2) I tend to fix my own stuff anyway and 3) I'd much rather invest that money, then have the extra money for the occasional replacement if it comes to that. But not everyone will make the same decisions.

[J.P.M.]

Different application but same topic; would you consider extended Inverter warranties worthless also? I have SolarEdge with the extended 25yr (installer threw it in). I would think if it fails I get a replacement, no?

If you're asking me, the answer is probably no, but for reasons that may not be directly related to quality.

Ever wonder why almost everyone who sells durable consumer goods, including PV equipment to end users breaks their ass to push extended warranties ad nauseum ? Well, follow the money.

Ever notice that extended warranty pitches contain more than a small amount of fear mongering in them ? Blame most of that on consumer ignorance. Most string inverters of reasonable quality don't fail during the warranty period. I've got no numbers on that but after riding herd on what's now 140+ arrays in my HOA, to the best of my knowledge, a string inverter has yet to fail.

Extended warranties are a gold mine for mfgs. and sellers. In effect, that means that the odds of a warranty claim are small enough (or the cost of what amounts to failure insurance is great enough according to some de facto actuary/rate setter - same thing) to make them a profit center for the mfg/seller with no overhead except the spiff the salesperson gets - which can ne substantial. All that makes them statistically a net loser for users ignorant enough to get suckered into such B.S., putting those losers on the wrong end of probability for what they are led to believe are higher failure rates than reality would verify.

Kind of like the odds in a casino. The house will, at the end of the day and on balance, always win. So it is with extended warranties. Ask the question: " If your product is so good, why do I need insurance against failure ? "

I'm not much of a gambler but I do follow the logic that fortune favors the bold, at least the bold who play head's up ball, and I take my chances because I'm pretty sure extended warranties are, in reality, no more than extended B.S.

On the day/day side of reality, maybe a string inverter will only last 10 years or so. I'd imagine that an inverter not exposed to an outside environment and kept cool might have a greater probability of making it past its warranty period, but I'm betting it'll last at least through the warranty period and that's what I bought/paid for.

[frankge]

Different application but same topic; would you consider extended Inverter warranties worthless also? I have SolarEdge with the extended 25yr (installer threw it in). I would think if it fails I get a replacement, no?

[J.P.M.]

Ok this is what I got from LG through the contractor for everyone's edification.


Specifically, section 4-2.O explains that they do not have to replace the panel if is scratched and the scratch is not affecting performance. So it is basically just stating that they do not replace it for cosmetic reasons.

Section 4-2.P This is a case where they are saying that normal wear and tear, specifically those caused by sound, vibration, rust, scratches, or discoloration are not covered. However, electrical production is still guaranteed. Basically if the panels get banged up but are still working at their electrical production threshold, they are not going to replace it. If the electrical production is reduced, they will still cover per section 2 of the warranty. I've listed section 2 below for reference.
LG offers one of the best warranty of all panel manufacturers currently available. There is always a level of risk with the investment but with LG, it is minimized compared to others.
Please let me know if this helps and if you have any other questions.
Thanks

2. 25 Years Limited Warranty for Power Output
LG warrants that for a period of five (5) year from Warranty Start Date the actual power output of the module will be no less than 95%
of the labeled power output. From the 6th year, the warranty for power output will decline annually by 0.4% in each of the remaining
20 years, so that during 25th year, an actual output of at least 87.0% of the nameplate power output specified on the Module will be
[I]achieved. The power output values shall be those measured under LG

All this is a non issue. You do not understand what's needed to verify a warranty claim or the near impossibility of getting such information, or what it means.

As for edification, you're pointing its need in the wrong direction. I suspect you need it relative to your knowledge of what's important with respect to PV system design, purchase and operation more than those who have responded. I've read most warranties and particularly LG's. While not writing for them, I suspect responders to your thread have done similar. We all pretty much know warranties are little more than marketing tools that have little bearing on product quality or system performance. Trying to separate fly specs from pepper on a warranty claim in ways similar to what your doing here may lead you to the same conclusion.

Get more educated and you may find your priorities will get rearranged and more focused.

[azdave]

Have you read the replies in your own thread about this being a non-issue? Warranty differences should not be a decision point for a purchase when dealing with any reputable panel manufacturers.

Concentrate on how your system will be installed and panels mounted and who will do the work. That is what will fail you first and be far most costly and time consuming than a possible panel problem.

Do you get suckered into all of those "extended" warranty offers too?

[jnkweaver]

Ok this is what I got from LG through the contractor for everyone's edification.


Specifically, section 4-2.O explains that they do not have to replace the panel if is scratched and the scratch is not affecting performance. So it is basically just stating that they do not replace it for cosmetic reasons.

Section 4-2.P This is a case where they are saying that normal wear and tear, specifically those caused by sound, vibration, rust, scratches, or discoloration are not covered. However, electrical production is still guaranteed. Basically if the panels get banged up but are still working at their electrical production threshold, they are not going to replace it. If the electrical production is reduced, they will still cover per section 2 of the warranty. I've listed section 2 below for reference.
LG offers one of the best warranty of all panel manufacturers currently available. There is always a level of risk with the investment but with LG, it is minimized compared to others.
Please let me know if this helps and if you have any other questions.
Thanks

2. 25 Years Limited Warranty for Power Output
LG warrants that for a period of five (5) year from Warranty Start Date the actual power output of the module will be no less than 95%
of the labeled power output. From the 6th year, the warranty for power output will decline annually by 0.4% in each of the remaining
20 years, so that during 25th year, an actual output of at least 87.0% of the nameplate power output specified on the Module will be
[I]achieved. The power output values shall be those measured under LG

[SunEagle]

Any company offering a 25-year warranty on an electrical device that sits outside 24 hours a day, year after year is going to have at least a dozen reasons to dispute their liability if you make a claim years from now. Myself, I would not assign any value to a panel warranty longer than 10 years. If you do lose a panel after 15-20 years do you think they will just send you a new one with no hassle? I really doubt it.

Warranties are something that the sales person uses to hook the customer into purchasing something that sounds great but may never last 50% as long as they want.

The trick is getting compensated for the equipment failure from the Manufacturer. Now that can be a battle if the time period is well into the Warranty time period.

[azdave]

How can they say they have a warranty for 25 years when normal wear and tear invalidates the warranty?

Any company offering a 25-year warranty on an electrical device that sits outside 24 hours a day, year after year is going to have at least a dozen reasons to dispute their liability if you make a claim years from now. Myself, I would not assign any value to a panel warranty longer than 10 years. If you do lose a panel after 15-20 years do you think they will just send you a new one with no hassle? I really doubt it.

[Scott Sousa]

JPM is correct, modules are a commodity, when built by a reputable MFR. I put up thousands of modules per year and aside from the obviously broken-in shipping ones, there are very few bad units.

[J.P.M.]

So this is normal? Anyone have any complaints about LG panels? My other choice is a REC 290 or a Trina 300 with Enphase micro-inverters

Normal ? Probably, whatever normal means.

Say this out loud: "Solar panels from reputable manufacturers are now a commodity." Repeat until internalized.

[jnkweaver]

So this is normal? Anyone have any complaints about LG panels? My other choice is a REC 290 or a Trina 300 with Enphase micro-inverters

[J.P.M.]

I would expect the warranty to cover normal wear and tear because if I am using substandard materials and the panel fails early, I can just say well that is normal wear and tear sorry it isn't covered.

And if I use poor materials and substandard mfg. procedures as a mfg., and it results in an egregiously substandard product, word will spread.

As a practical matter, panels have become a commodity and most of reality seems to point to few panel failures with most of those being infant mortality covered within most warranties.

Still, reality is what it is and no warranty covers everything all the time. Won't happen.