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LG330e1c with Enphase Micro Inverter vs LG300S1c-with Solar Edge /w Power Optimizers

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  • LG330e1c with Enphase Micro Inverter vs LG300S1c-with Solar Edge /w Power Optimizers

    Hi, first time poster here. Looking for thoughts basically on opinions of using Micro Inverters vs Centralized Inverter with Power Optimizers. It looks like the prices will be relatively close, so its a matter of efficiency, reliability, etc. If it matters I'm in Arizona, on a single story with a 12.8kw system. Is that enough information? Appreciate the help

  • #2
    Micro inverters are best in sites with shading, as shade moves, you only loose the shaded panel. Optimizers have the benefit of rapid shutdown over simple string Inverters.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
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    • #3
      When I was looking into putting a system in, I found case after case of people with Enphase Micro Inverters starting to fail after a few years. And, then it's a stream of replacements after that.

      How good is a warranty if the company goes belly up, which there's been a bunch of speculation on Enphase potentially doing? Is the Solar Company you had install the stuff going to be around? Do you have to pay for their labor when they're doing the free replacement?

      Power optimizers on the other hand give a good result, and don't seem to have similar failure rates. It's true the lifespan of single inverters may be shorter than the warranty of a micro inverter, but with those issues, I don't think it's worth it. Others may have different opinions.

      Unless you have real random shading, I'd personally avoid Micro Inverters. For me I've got shading on 3-4 of the 24 panels, for an hour or so late in the day and power optimizer keeps the strings pumping full power on the rest of the panels.

      12.8kW seems like a pretty big system for a single story in Arizona. If you haven't done so already, I'd use PVWatts and get an estimate of your production for the panels and the setup. One thing about PVWatts is that the default loss estimate of 14% is too high. Most people say turn that down to about 10%. I ended up using the 14% loss, and right now I'm out producing the estimates by a fair amount. I want to wait until the end of the first year of production to do a full analysis, but I probably could have reduced that loss amount much lower. I'd take this with your actual previous years consumption rates and see where you're at. Does you utility use Time of Use, force you on it for Solar, what's the Net Metering... Look into all these details if you haven't. I'm sure JPM will chime in regarding 'Solar power your house for dummies' - it's a good read. Figure out what you're costs are going to to be, and how big a system you really need. Also, are there areas you can reduce your power consumption first. Paying for a smaller system saves you money too. Especially if you're going to need a panel upgrade, which I'm guessing is highly likely with that big of a system.
      Last edited by TAZ427; 06-15-2018, 07:11 PM.

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      • #4
        If you don't have shade, skip the micros.

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        • #5
          Bxelam, what utility you on here? Srp or APS?

          Installing yourself, contractor, or solar company with warranty? Helps to understand whole picture.

          You'll be happy with either choice of product. Many years back, 2011ish, years enphase did have reliability issues with the m190. They are many generations past that though.
          ​​​​​​
          In fact sunpower just sold out to/outsourced their micro business to enphase too, which speaks volumes as sunpowers reputation is "best of the best". Sunpower will start using enphase from here out. Just as LG AC modules are enphase.

          ​​​​

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          • #6
            ImInPhxAZ I have APS. I'm having a solar company install. I read about Sunpower selling it myself. I guess at the point, and I love the feedback here. Is i have a local, lowest cost company with fantastic pricing, and fantastic customer feedback. Or, do I pay 5 percent more, and get a better labor warranty. (10 years for higher priced or 2 year labor for lower priced)

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            • #7
              J.P.M. I think the shading for me, is very minimal, maybe one or two panels.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by bxelam View Post
                Hi, first time poster here. Looking for thoughts basically on opinions of using Micro Inverters vs Centralized Inverter with Power Optimizers. It looks like the prices will be relatively close, so its a matter of efficiency, reliability, etc. If it matters I'm in Arizona, on a single story with a 12.8kw system. Is that enough information? Appreciate the help
                If it was me, all else being equal, I'd compare the NPV of the lost production from shading vs. (the initial cost differences plus some assigned rough $ number for the PITA factor of each option), and choose the option with the lowest long term cost/ kWh of production.

                But, if replacing lost production from shading was deemed to be economically viable, I'd probably choose optimizers over micros if only for the idea of having fewer electronics in a harsh roof top environment to deal with.
                Last edited by J.P.M.; 06-22-2018, 02:24 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                  If it was me, all else being equal, I'd compare the NPV of the lost production from shading vs. (the initial cost differences plus some assigned rough $ number for the PITA factor of each option), and choose the option with the lowest long term cost/ kWh of production.

                  But, if replacing lost production from shading was deemed to be economically viable, I'd probably choose optimizers over micros if only for the idea of having fewer electronics in a harsh roof top environment to deal with.
                  OP is comparing micros to optimizers. There should be no real shade difference there.
                  OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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                  • #10
                    And really the cost for the micros proposals are actually cheaper than the centralized inverter, So, perhaps I'm overthinking it a bit.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bxelam View Post
                      And really the cost for the micros proposals are actually cheaper than the centralized inverter, So, perhaps I'm overthinking it a bit.
                      Are you referring to a central inverter with or without optimizers ?

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                      • #12
                        I have Enphase micro inverters and I can tell you that failure rates are very high. Of 34 I've had 14 replaces or about 41% to date on my roof install. Enphase changed their warranty on paying the installer to replace the micro inverter with a new on when it fails so now you have to pay the installer to come out and replace the micro inverter. To me since I started with Enphase micro inverters and in my warranty they were responsible to pay for the replacement and pay the installer to replace them on failure then I shouldn't have to pay for the replacement to be installed. Not sure if I'd ever use Enphase ever again. When I do move upon retirement and build a new home I will not use Enphase again I will go with a different system for inverters and most likely go with a whole system inverter this time since they seem to last much longer. Live and learn.

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                        • #13
                          When I was shopping for my system I was in love with Enphase and the simplicity and supposed safety of direct DC to AC conversion by each Micro. But I found very few reputable installers in my area (NJ) who would quote me systems with them. So I ended up going with Solar Edge and I am very happy with the decision. While I do have shade, even if I did not, I would still choose Solar Edge because of the per panel monitoring, the excellent management portal, and the rapid shutdown. Perhaps and SE solutions costs a $2-4K (if that) more than a conventional string inverter, but I'd gladly pay this again.

                          Later I had mentioned this to the installers (one of the few in NJ who services other people's systems after their installers have gone out of business) after my system was nearly finished being installed. He said, "come here," and he showed me a box in the back of his van about the size of a case of paper. It was filled with Enphase micros. He said, these are just the ones I've replaced this month.

                          It's not my intention to badmouth Enphase, but a lot of their early Optimizer models do have very poor reliability . It seems like newer models might be better. But it is difficult to say, they keep coming out with new models every year (or more often) and we only get complaints on the board so there may be lots of satisfied customers for all I know that haven't been sufficiently motivated to say how great theirs are working.

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                          • #14
                            My system, 17 250 Watt Renogy panels with Enphase M215-IG microinverters, has been trouble free for the almost 3 years since installation. How long will that last is unknown, but the infant mortality period is over as I define it.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kenshop View Post
                              I have Enphase micro inverters and I can tell you that failure rates are very high. Of 34 I've had 14 replaces or about 41% to date on my roof install
                              What do you have, the M190s? A friend and I installed 26 total M215s four years ago, so far no failures with many days over 100 degrees.

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