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  • #16
    According to SolarEdge, whom I spoke with about this, they indicated that when integrating a Storedge with my existing HD Wave inverters, I would need a device which I may have mis identified as a voltage controller (I believe the device is called WattNode Modbus).

    While I am looking for assistance in accomplishing my goals, I have already educated myself to some degree regarding battery technology.

    I can't say that I was lecturing anyone, I certainly did not intend that, but the limitations of lead acid batteries are well known, and over my career, I have seen how short their life expectancy is, in the real world (I have been in IT for decades). Were they practical, I would be looking at large capacitor banks, but the technology is not there yet. If everything were equal I would use LTO batteries.

    I also get quite frustrated when I am looking for help in a specific DIY project, and most of the posts are nay-sayers telling me that what I want to do is too expensive. I am aware of the costs (or will be). I do know that a generator may be a more practical $olution, I know that lead acid batteries have a lower initial capital cost per kilowatt hour (even per usable KWH) and have been around since Eve bit the apple. But based on my research the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) of Lead Acid Batteries is higher than some other technologies.

    If there is a technical reason I can't put together a system similar to what I want then that would be important to hear. If however you are concerned about my sending money down the crapper, let me worry about that. It's my money after all. If I want someone to tell me how not spend money, I can talk to my wife.

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    • #17
      Back to what I think I need;

      1) A device to charge the batteries, probably from AC.
      2) A device to recognize when the power from the grid is down.
      3) A device to disconnect my mains, making my home a micro-grid or an island.
      4) A pure sine wave inverter with constant power of about 10 KW, burst power to 20 KW.
      5) A device to tell the existing HD-Wave inverters how much power I need at that moment (effectively throttling the inverters). Or something between the inverters and the rest of the microgrid to throttle the power, so the solar panels don't try to dump more power than what is needed to charge the batteries and run everything else.

      This is what I think I need, however I am somewhat sketchy on this, and am looking for help in both the design as well as the bits & pieces necessary.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by aceinc View Post
        OK, so far the consensus seems to be that I am a fool, and want loose my a$$.
        Now that we've gotten that out of the way, is there anyone on this forum, that is interested in providing technical help?
        Not me, because you are wanting to do something that is environmentally and economically unwise.
        LiFePo4/LTO have the promise of 10-30 years of use. without replacement.
        and there is the rub. 10-30 years. is it 10 ? or is it 30 ? Big discrepancy between the 2 numbers. The accelerated age testing might indicate that, but none have made it that far in real life,
        and I don't expect them to attain that goal for some time. But do your research and place your bet. Cold Fusion was also supposed to be a done deal by now...

        But - listen to you sales droids, I'm sure they are sincere. Or listen to folks living and breathing this stuff for years. your choice.



        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

          Not me, because you are wanting to do something that is environmentally and economically unwise.

          and there is the rub. 10-30 years. is it 10 ? or is it 30 ? Big discrepancy between the 2 numbers. The accelerated age testing might indicate that, but none have made it that far in real life,
          and I don't expect them to attain that goal for some time. But do your research and place your bet. Cold Fusion was also supposed to be a done deal by now...

          But - listen to you sales droids, I'm sure they are sincere. Or listen to folks living and breathing this stuff for years. your choice.


          Wow, if this is from the moderator, I must have certainly joined the wrong forum.

          Sorry to waste your time, have fun living in the past, I will go see what the future holds. Perhaps I can get a coal fired steam generator for my house.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by aceinc View Post
            According to SolarEdge, whom I spoke with about this, they indicated that when integrating a Storedge with my existing HD Wave inverters, I would need a device which I may have mis identified as a voltage controller (I believe the device is called WattNode Modbus).
            You would replace one or both of the existing SE7600H inverters with a StorEdge. The WattNode is not a controller but a measuring device, and would be used to measure your consumption.

            Originally posted by aceinc View Post
            While I am looking for assistance in accomplishing my goals, I have already educated myself to some degree regarding battery technology.
            First part of education is to understand that you may not know all there is to know...and that there are others that may have more experience.
            Corollary, you may have learned from someone that has less experience or older knowledge. This is especially true in this age of internet, there are many with poor understanding of things making claims.

            Originally posted by aceinc View Post
            I can't say that I was lecturing anyone, I certainly did not intend that, but the limitations of lead acid batteries are well known, and over my career, I have seen how short their life expectancy is, in the real world (I have been in IT for decades). Were they practical, I would be looking at large capacitor banks, but the technology is not there yet. If everything were equal I would use LTO batteries.
            There are many people here that have a great deal more experience....


            OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by aceinc View Post
              Back to what I think I need;

              1) A device to charge the batteries, probably from AC.
              Bimodal inverters charge batteries

              Originally posted by aceinc View Post
              2) A device to recognize when the power from the grid is down.
              Bimodal inverters have this built in.

              Originally posted by aceinc View Post
              3) A device to disconnect my mains, making my home a micro-grid or an island.
              Again bimodal inverters have this built in.

              Originally posted by aceinc View Post
              4) A pure sine wave inverter with constant power of about 10 KW, burst power to 20 KW.
              Bimodal inverters...
              Also you do not need to AC couple your entire system or take your entire home on the emergency circuit, so you could do a 5kw inverter (little bigger though as the bimodal needs to be larger than the grid tie inverter).
              Or if you were to go with StorEdge you would replace one inverter with the StorEdge which is rated for 7.6kw, and move some solar from the other to it.


              Originally posted by aceinc View Post
              5) A device to tell the existing HD-Wave inverters how much power I need at that moment (effectively throttling the inverters). Or something between the inverters and the rest of the microgrid to throttle the power, so the solar panels don't try to dump more power than what is needed to charge the batteries and run everything else.
              obviously not needed with the StorEdge solution. With Outback coupling you would simply turn off the existing solarEdge inverter with capabilities built into the bimodal inverter.


              OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by aceinc View Post
                Sorry to waste your time, have fun living in the past, I will go see what the future holds. Perhaps I can get a coal fired steam generator for my house.
                More smart ass remarks. You THINK you are looking at the future but people have already tried it and have experience. The sales people you are listening to are telling you what you want to hear so that you will give them your money. Mike and Sunking are giving you information for free and not wanting anything from you, but you think you know better still.

                OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by aceinc View Post

                  My issue with lead acid batteries is the number of cycles before maintenance/replacement. AGM require little maintenance, but they still have a short life/cycle expectancy. I am bad at doing maintenance, or periodic service, I know this about myself, and have come to accept it. I would rather spend a few more $ and not have to replace batteries every 3-5 years. LiFePo4/LTO have the promise of 10-30 years of use without replacement..
                  You are believing lies. I have been building data centers for almost 40 years and trust me, you do not have a clue what you are talking about. I am not talking about a rack inside a closet with a 12 volt battery, I am talking 100,000 square feet data centers with 40 tons of batteries and dual generators the size of houses. You do not know squat about batteries.

                  Go to this forum, they will tell you exactly what you want to hear, a pack of lies and sales pitches. You deserve to loose a lot of money as that is the only way you can learn. Here is you first piece of information IT weenie, anything you take off grid is going to cost you 5 to 10 times more than buying it from the POCO in battery cost alone, and that is if you use a good quality 10 year Pb battery like a Trojan Industrial model. Use lithium and the price goes way up and does not last as long as a good flooded lead acid.

                  Here is some more info a kid can understand. If the lithium batteries were so good why do they only come with a short warranty of 1 to 5 years? A good Trojan, Rolls, or C&D come with 10 to 15 years. Pull your head out of your smart ass. .
                  Last edited by Sunking; 06-09-2018, 10:11 AM.
                  MSEE, PE

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by aceinc View Post

                    Wow, if this is from the moderator, I must have certainly joined the wrong forum.

                    Sorry to waste your time, have fun living in the past, I will go see what the future holds. Perhaps I can get a coal fired steam generator for my house.
                    Living in the past is not as bad as believing you are living in the future. Lithium batteries (of any chemistry) may be the "future" but they still are in experimental (translates to expensive) stage.

                    Maybe in 10 years (or less) someone will have found a way to build a "cheap" storage unit that makes all existing batteries look like burlap bags. But until then the best bang for your buck is FLA type batteries based on "history" and experimentation.

                    If you don't feel we are trying to help you then go do what you want but we will not try to sell you anything or point you in a direction that is dangerous.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by SunEagle
                      Maybe in 10 years (or less) someone will have found a way to build a "cheap"
                      storage unit that makes all existing batteries look like burlap bags. But until then the best bang for your
                      buck is FLA type batteries based on "history" and experimentation.
                      I keep pointing out that we have been trying to make a quantum leap in batteries (or alternate energy
                      storage technology) for going on 2 centuries, achieving glacial progress.

                      I saw on PBS a lithium battery separator has been that doesn't burst into flames even with nails driven
                      through it, sounds like a real advance. Everyone talks about how brand new EVs perform, but I am
                      not hearing anything about what can happen in a serious accident, or when they get past the 300,000
                      miles I run cars to. Bruce Roe

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by aceinc View Post
                        2) Radian Inverters seem to be focused on Lead Acid battery technology. I would imagine LiFePo4 or LTO with appropriate BMS modules coupled with an appropriate inverter/charger wouldn't have these problems.
                        Depends on their response to transient loads. If you find a LiFePO4 with a similar ESR/discharge response it would likely work.
                        My issue with lead acid batteries is the number of cycles before maintenance/replacement.
                        You just said that this was primarily a backup system, and that they would not be deep cycled very often. With that you could get a good lead acid bank that would last 10 years.
                        Irrespective of whether I use StorEdge, or something else I will need a voltage controller
                        Nope. The xxxEdge systems include voltage regulation.
                        and some sort of automatic switching.
                        Every hybrid inverter out there has a transfer switch.
                        based on my research the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) of Lead Acid Batteries is higher than some other technologies.
                        True in some cases if you are going to cycle a lot. Generally not true in backup applications.
                        1) A device to charge the batteries, probably from AC.
                        2) A device to recognize when the power from the grid is down.
                        3) A device to disconnect my mains, making my home a micro-grid or an island.
                        4) A pure sine wave inverter with constant power of about 10 KW, burst power to 20 KW.
                        5) A device to tell the existing HD-Wave inverters how much power I need at that moment (effectively throttling the inverters). Or something between the inverters and the rest of the microgrid to throttle the power, so the solar panels don't try to dump more power than what is needed to charge the batteries and run everything else.
                        1-4 is done by any hybrid inverter. 5 is done by the StorEdge if you go that route.
                        Now that we've gotten that out of the way, is there anyone on this forum, that is interested in providing technical help?
                        Why ask for that if you are going to ignore what people say?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          First and foremost, my Smart Ass comments were brought on by folks impugning my ability to think clearly, and buying into the sales pitch of some non-existent salesperson.

                          My aversion to lead acid batteries is from personal experience, as well as research. One such paper is this;

                          http://www.power-thru.com/documents/...te%20Paper.pdf

                          Two snippets from the paper include;

                          "Recent industry experience indicates that a 4 to 7 year VRLA battery life is more likely, regardless of cell size or warranty claims. "

                          and

                          "The biggest challenge for the operators of UPS systems is to ensure that the life of their batteries is extended as much as possible. They can do this by operating
                          the batteries in a temperature controlled environment and this will offer a significant increase in lifetime so long as the number of discharges is relatively small. Further gains can be made by installing a battery monitoring system and performing regular maintenance to change out older cells which may be failing and damaging to good cells within the string."

                          The second snippet goes to two concerns;

                          1) I do not have a climate controlled environment. Just a garage in south Florida, which gets kind of toasty during the summer.

                          2) My inability to do maintenance "performing regular maintenance."

                          Replacing my existing (rather new) HD Wave inverters with StorEdge is potentially an option, but I would like to see what other options are currently available. If I were willing to wait and wanted to pay retail, I could just start adding Tesla Powerwalls. It is my understanding they are AC to AC, and would work with my existing inverters.

                          I was thinking more along the lines of something like this https://theinverterstore.com/product...to-120240-vac/ for the core portion of the system. However in contacting them, they were unclear on how to integrate this into a full system.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Many very knowledgeable folks have told you you have a poor plan. Not even the sales folk at the inverter store you contacted can help.
                            It's your money and your life (extremely toxic gas is released from Li battery fires), and you are free to do as you wish, but we just cannot grasp why you are so set on your course.

                            Not every Li battery bank burns up, but more often than lead acid, which is commonly from ignition of improperly vented hydrogen gas.
                            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                            Comment

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