HELP! - Questions about New Solar Panels and Meters

[Braintree56]

Hi Everyone,

I had solar panels installed on my house four years ago and have been struggling with the power company because I don't think the meter is working correctly. I'm wondering if anyone could provide some information about the meter, or questions I should be asking, or legal procedures I should start...

I have a small cape-style house. I installed a 12-panel array. The power company has not been printing the amount I am producing on my bill. When I asked about it - they told me that because my array was so small - I would never go below 0. The problem is - I hit zero almost every time the sun is out. They told me it was the monthly average.

I suspect that every time I'm producing more than I'm using - my meter hits zero, but doesn't bank the extra. I've run a bunch of numbers that confirm this, but the power company basically told me "just trust us, everything is working fine". I've been working with the Public Utilities Commission for the past two months to resolve this - but I haven't gotten anywhere.

The meter that I have is by Tilliant Networks, Landis Gyr, RES-3000-Focus. I'm wondering if anyone can tell me about this meter - is this meter even capable of "banking" power when I've generated more than I've used???

I would appreciate any information or guidance. I also might not be asking the correct questions or using the correct language - so please, let me know know what you would say or do in this position...

Thank you!!!

[Braintree56]

I should also add that I called the manufacturer of the meter and they told me that "they not legally allowed to talk with me".

[solarix]

Your trouble is that they own the meter, therefore they make the rules. You need to get your own meter and have your own data to present them. Easiest way is to use a meter with clamp on amp sensors like a sense.com. Convenient and easy with an online app - but several hundred dollars. The utility is probably correct however and this will just be more money out of pocket.

[Braintree56]

That's a great idea!!! Any suggestions for how I would do that or how much those things cost?

[J.P.M.]

If you do not know what your system is producing or how much electricity you are using you have no may to confirm or at least attempt to conform the accuracy your suspicions.

There are many products on the market that perform the monitoring functions you will require.

You also need to understand how you are billed for electricity and how net metering works with your utility. What looks perhaps to be your lack of knowledge of those things as well as not knowing how much electricity your array is producing as well as how much electricity you are using are also parts of the origin of your trouble.

As for the array being large or small - that depends on your location, array orientation and other variables. Also, in a relative sense, how large or small an array is is also f(your usage). With low annual usage and the array might be oversized for the load it needs to meet.

My money would be on the POCO's equipment functioning as it should. I believe a lot of your problem has its origins in your lack of knowledge about PV generation, how and how much electricity you use, and are charged for that electricity and how net metering works.

Educate yourself and you will either agree or find logical ways to prove their equipment is malfunctioning. Either way, you'll need monitoring equipment to provide backup data.

[Braintree56]

J.P.M. - Yes, posting here was part of trying to get educated! But I've been knee deep in this stuff for a few years, so I might know more than what my original post indicated....

I understand how I am billed for electricity and net metering works. In fact, I believe there is a problem with the way I'm being billed (which is why I suspect you thought I didn't understand it...But in actuality I think they are screwing it up!!!). Net Metering means that my surplus power is transferred to the grid and that offsets the cost of power drawn from the grid. My problem is that I suspect the surplus power is being transferred to the grid - but the Power Company is not recognizing that and offsetting my bill. Does that make sense?

As far as Data and Metering that I DO have - I have a monitoring system so I can get real-time data on my production. I also have the ability to go back to any date since I installed the panels to track my production. So I know EXACTLY how much I've produced. The problem is with usage - The Power Company has an "Energy Manager" which tracks usage - I used this before the panels to monitor my usage and reduce my usage and it worked out great. Since installing the panels, what I generally see is that during sunny days - the usage goes to zero. The daily totals reflect that the usage gets to zero but doesn't recognize any surplus.

I can prove this because I've noted dates when we were not at home (on vacation). I've estimated the amount of power that the house used throughout the day - (fridge, alarm clocks, etc.) and cross-referenced that data with my generation data. I estimated that the house uses 6kWh when we are not at home through a 24 hour period. I generated over 15kWh on that particular day and we were still charged for 2kWh.... Because during the day - our usage dropped to 0, but at night we still used about 2kWh... Does that make sense?

On my power bill - the Power Company does not list any generation. They state the reason for this is that my monthly net metering will never hit zero... When I installed the panels, I worked with two different solar companies to get estimates. The goal was to set up an array that would give us a surplus in the summer that we could draw from in the Winter - basically just above zero. So for them to say we will never hit zero conflicts with the recommendations from two solar companies. They accounted for the orientation of the roof, azimuth, etc... when making their estimates.

I'm not an expert... But I've done a significant amount of research! I'm here looking for additional options or input... I might be misunderstanding this, so please, educate me!

I think setting up an independent metering system is a great idea. Do you know where I could find those products? Or have any suggestions?

[Braintree56]

Would this be something that you would recommend? https://smile.amazon.com/Aeotec-Ener...ustomerReviews

[bcroe]

There may be a problem. But one thing I recommend, is to get a really accurate handle on your
home usage. Phantom loads can cost a lot more than I or you suspected/estimated. I spent a
couple years tracking these down before getting into solar. Bruce Roe

[Braintree56]

Yes - I think you are right. I need an accurate statement of my own usage - that is the missing link. Is there a product that you would recommend to monitor my usage? The Aeotec Home Energy Meter Gen5, Z-Wave Plus electricity use monitor seems like it would be exactly what I need - any thoughts on that?

[J.P.M.]

J.P.M. - Yes, posting here was part of trying to get educated! But I've been knee deep in this stuff for a few years, so I might know more than what my original post indicated....

I understand how I am billed for electricity and net metering works. In fact, I believe there is a problem with the way I'm being billed (which is why I suspect you thought I didn't understand it...But in actuality I think they are screwing it up!!!). Net Metering means that my surplus power is transferred to the grid and that offsets the cost of power drawn from the grid. My problem is that I suspect the surplus power is being transferred to the grid - but the Power Company is not recognizing that and offsetting my bill. Does that make sense?

As far as Data and Metering that I DO have - I have a monitoring system so I can get real-time data on my production. I also have the ability to go back to any date since I installed the panels to track my production. So I know EXACTLY how much I've produced. The problem is with usage - The Power Company has an "Energy Manager" which tracks usage - I used this before the panels to monitor my usage and reduce my usage and it worked out great. Since installing the panels, what I generally see is that during sunny days - the usage goes to zero. The daily totals reflect that the usage gets to zero but doesn't recognize any surplus.

I can prove this because I've noted dates when we were not at home (on vacation). I've estimated the amount of power that the house used throughout the day - (fridge, alarm clocks, etc.) and cross-referenced that data with my generation data. I estimated that the house uses 6kWh when we are not at home through a 24 hour period. I generated over 15kWh on that particular day and we were still charged for 2kWh.... Because during the day - our usage dropped to 0, but at night we still used about 2kWh... Does that make sense?

On my power bill - the Power Company does not list any generation. They state the reason for this is that my monthly net metering will never hit zero... When I installed the panels, I worked with two different solar companies to get estimates. The goal was to set up an array that would give us a surplus in the summer that we could draw from in the Winter - basically just above zero. So for them to say we will never hit zero conflicts with the recommendations from two solar companies. They accounted for the orientation of the roof, azimuth, etc... when making their estimates.

I'm not an expert... But I've done a significant amount of research! I'm here looking for additional options or input... I might be misunderstanding this, so please, educate me!

I think setting up an independent metering system is a great idea. Do you know where I could find those products? Or have any suggestions?

I'm a lousy educator, but some things come to mind:

1.) How big is your array ? Saying you have a 12 panel system is like saying you have 12 boulders when the question is what is the total weight of your boulders.

2.) That's not quite how most folks understand how net metering works. Net metering was generally conceived to allow users who generate some or all of their usage to use it anytime, not just when it is generated - in effect using the grid as a storage device of unlimited capacity. Maybe your POCO does it differently and does not pay for and therefore does not recognize excess generation. Some POCOs do not pay for excess generation. Have you read your POCO's net metering agreement and tariffs ? Have you asked and received clarifications and answers to any questions raised in your own mind about those things ? If you believe the problem lies with how you believe you are being billed, perhaps your understanding is incorrect.

I can believe I understand something dead nuts, check myself and my work, and still get it wrong. Happens to me more than I'd like to admit.

3.) Have you confirmed that your array is functioning properly or nominally as it was designed ? If you've been knee deep in this stuff for years then you are familiar with modeling tools such as PVWatts and other tools to get a SWAG for output without relying solely on what a vendor or several vendors may tell you. How do your output estimates agree with vendor estimates?

4.) Is the POCO meter of a type that recognizes directionality ? Was the meter changed out when the array was installed ? Because they usually don't recognize which way the power is flowing, old meters can wind up billing you for what you send back to the grid.

5.) If you have the monitoring capability you seem to be saying you have, and you know what your gross consumption is, and those numbers don't match up or make sense with the POCO is saying, and you can construct a case that makes logical sense, then the problem is either an error in how you got to your conclusion or with how the POCO arrived at your lack of surplus usage. I'd persist with the POCO and respectfully ask them to disprove your logic. Otherwise, you'll be left with no alternative than to contact the state authority that deals with such matters.


I too have done something similar as you have done to determine house usage by monitoring output when I'm on vacation. I did so several times but with the purpose of comparing my array monitor's output/calibration to what the POCO meter says. I did so by shutting off all power to the house at the electrical panel except the circuits for the fridge and the array. FWIW, I found out the fridge uses an average of 1.56 kWh/day when not opened with some variation for kitchen temp. Other schemes have also helped me figure out a vampire load of ~ 80W or so for an overall base use of ~ 3.5 kWh/day running load including the fridge. FWIW, as best as I can guess, my array monitor is ~ 0.5% high in what it reports for array production vs. what the POCO meter says I send back to the grid.

As far as what you can prove, in one practical sense, that comes down to what you can get the authority that regulates the POCO to believe.

[Sunking]

The USA has gone to hell in a hand basket. Make an accusation and you are guilty until proven otherwise. Look it is possible the utility meter is in error, but most likely you do not understand the physics. Without your own metering, you have nothing to back up your suspicion. The utility has hard data and documentation and completely understands the physics that will stand up to peer scrutiny and the law.

[Braintree56]

The USA has gone to hell in a hand basket. Make an accusation and you are guilty until proven otherwise. Look it is possible the utility meter is in error, but most likely you do not understand the physics. Without your own metering, you have nothing to back up your suspicion. The utility has hard data and documentation and completely understands the physics that will stand up to peer scrutiny and the law.

Ummm... I'm not really sure how my situation has implications for the USA - nor am I making accusations... I'm here looking for information and I'm curious about the meter. I've also acknowledged, that, yes, I need my own metering system and I understand I might not be getting it... I'm not lawyering up or yelling at the POCO - just taking to forum to get input from people who probably know more than me and are independant... I think that's fairly reasonable action when you have a suspicion something might not be working right...

J.P.M. - Great Questions! I've been working on these. Number 4 is the question that prompted this post...

1) My System Design Capacity is 3.12 (kW) - Does that answer your question?
2) That is exactly what I understood to be how my Net Metering works. My POCO does pay (Credits) for excess generation. Some of my friends have printed on their bill how much Consumption, How much Generation, and then they pay the difference or are credited the excess. Credits are erased at the end of the year if they aren't used. On MY bill - the power company does not list my gross consumption or generation - which is what prompted my inquiry. I've asked for clarification and they told me that "I would never be in a position where I have an excess" as the reason that it's not printed on my bill. That seems odd to me... The PUC agrees.

3) I've had my vendor come out and inspect the array to ensure it's working properly - I have not done this independently. Just to clarfiy - by Knee Deep - I mean that I didn't just hire someone to install and then forget about it. I'm actively trying to understand and learn about the unit - but I'm no expert! My monitoring reports are very close to the estimates.

4) I'm not sure - that's why I was asking here. The woman at the POCO said that the unit "banks" the amount that generate in excess and then uses that first before drawing from the grid. I might be totally misunderstanding physics here... But I don't think my meter can do that... Which is why I'm asking here... The meter was NOT changed out when I had the array installed. Many of my friends who have panels DID have their meters changed out. I've asked the POCO about this and they said it's because my array is too small. You see why I think something might be funky?

5) Not exactly - the only piece that's missing from what I said was that I don't have a good read on Gross Consumption. I can get a read on NET consumption - meaning my consumption minus what I've generated (>0). And I Agree with everyone here! I think my next steps need to be an independent monitoring system of gross consumption so I can can do my own math and see if I'm being billed correctly. I've persisted with them, and I have an open case with the state authority. All interactions have been respectful. But when we went through an entire day hour-by-hour, her response to me was "This Energy Manager [monitoring tool] is a tool for you to use and not meant to be taken as entirely accurate." Seriously...

The Public Utilities Commission has an open case, and they might come back with some resolve, but I figured I'd see what you have to say. It seems to me that your POCO reports to you what you generate? Mine doesn't. I've asked them to install the meter that does that, and they haven't returned my phone calls. I've spent hours on hold to try to get that answer.

I would be 100% happy if they just told me how much I was generating and how much I was using... So I could compare it to my other numbers and everyone was accountable.

[ButchDeal]

2) That is exactly what I understood to be how my Net Metering works. My POCO does pay (Credits) for excess generation. Some of my friends have printed on their bill how much Consumption, How much Generation, and then they pay the difference or are credited the excess. Credits are erased at the end of the year if they aren't used. On MY bill - the power company does not list my gross consumption or generation - which is what prompted my inquiry. I've asked for clarification and they told me that "I would never be in a position where I have an excess" as the reason that it's not printed on my bill. That seems odd to me... The PUC agrees.

3) I've had my vendor come out and inspect the array to ensure it's working properly - I have not done this independently. Just to clarfiy - by Knee Deep - I mean that I didn't just hire someone to install and then forget about it. I'm actively trying to understand and learn about the unit - but I'm no expert! My monitoring reports are very close to the estimates.

4) I'm not sure - that's why I was asking here. The woman at the POCO said that the unit "banks" the amount that generate in excess and then uses that first before drawing from the grid. I might be totally misunderstanding physics here... But I don't think my meter can do that... Which is why I'm asking here... The meter was NOT changed out when I had the array installed. Many of my friends who have panels DID have their meters changed out. I've asked the POCO about this and they said it's because my array is too small. You see why I think something might be funky?

OK this makes ZERO since. The meter can NOT bank or store any power. Net Metering is a BILLING systems and relies on a meter that is programmed to measure kWh in both directions, TWO numbers, one for kWh sent to the Grid and one for kWh sent to you. Your meter needs to show two different numbers. Your bill should show two numbers like your friends bills do.
Are your friends on the same PoCo?

5) Not exactly - the only piece that's missing from what I said was that I don't have a good read on Gross Consumption. I can get a read on NET consumption - meaning my consumption minus what I've generated (>0). And I Agree with everyone here! I think my next steps need to be an independent monitoring system of gross consumption so I can can do my own math and see if I'm being billed correctly. I've persisted with them, and I have an open case with the state authority. All interactions have been respectful. But when we went through an entire day hour-by-hour, her response to me was "This Energy Manager [monitoring tool] is a tool for you to use and not meant to be taken as entirely accurate." Seriously...

Well you think you can get a read on NET consumption but it is based on the meter which you are concerned is faulty or not programmed correctly.

The Public Utilities Commission has an open case, and they might come back with some resolve, but I figured I'd see what you have to say. It seems to me that your POCO reports to you what you generate? Mine doesn't. I've asked them to install the meter that does that, and they haven't returned my phone calls. I've spent hours on hold to try to get that answer.

your inverter should tell you what you generate. no Net meter can tell you what your solar array generates, only the NET (after self consumption).
Your PoCo needs to install a meter programed for dual measurements.

I would be 100% happy if they just told me how much I was generating and how much I was using... So I could compare it to my other numbers and everyone was accountable.

Well they can't tell you how much you are generating only how much you send to the grid and how much you draw from the grid.

[ButchDeal]

Yes - I think you are right. I need an accurate statement of my own usage - that is the missing link. Is there a product that you would recommend to monitor my usage? The Aeotec Home Energy Meter Gen5, Z-Wave Plus electricity use monitor seems like it would be exactly what I need - any thoughts on that?

You want one that knows about Solar and can do the math for you. Would be best if it is supported on PVOutput.org so you can get nice graphs.
TEDPro meters work this way if you get two MTUs and sets of CTs.

[J.P.M.]

Ummm... I'm not really sure how my situation has implications for the USA - nor am I making accusations... I'm here looking for information and I'm curious about the meter. I've also acknowledged, that, yes, I need my own metering system and I understand I might not be getting it... I'm not lawyering up or yelling at the POCO - just taking to forum to get input from people who probably know more than me and are independant... I think that's fairly reasonable action when you have a suspicion something might not be working right...

J.P.M. - Great Questions! I've been working on these. Number 4 is the question that prompted this post...

1) My System Design Capacity is 3.12 (kW) - Does that answer your question?
2) That is exactly what I understood to be how my Net Metering works. My POCO does pay (Credits) for excess generation. Some of my friends have printed on their bill how much Consumption, How much Generation, and then they pay the difference or are credited the excess. Credits are erased at the end of the year if they aren't used. On MY bill - the power company does not list my gross consumption or generation - which is what prompted my inquiry. I've asked for clarification and they told me that "I would never be in a position where I have an excess" as the reason that it's not printed on my bill. That seems odd to me... The PUC agrees.

3) I've had my vendor come out and inspect the array to ensure it's working properly - I have not done this independently. Just to clarfiy - by Knee Deep - I mean that I didn't just hire someone to install and then forget about it. I'm actively trying to understand and learn about the unit - but I'm no expert! My monitoring reports are very close to the estimates.

4) I'm not sure - that's why I was asking here. The woman at the POCO said that the unit "banks" the amount that generate in excess and then uses that first before drawing from the grid. I might be totally misunderstanding physics here... But I don't think my meter can do that... Which is why I'm asking here... The meter was NOT changed out when I had the array installed. Many of my friends who have panels DID have their meters changed out. I've asked the POCO about this and they said it's because my array is too small. You see why I think something might be funky?

5) Not exactly - the only piece that's missing from what I said was that I don't have a good read on Gross Consumption. I can get a read on NET consumption - meaning my consumption minus what I've generated (>0). And I Agree with everyone here! I think my next steps need to be an independent monitoring system of gross consumption so I can can do my own math and see if I'm being billed correctly. I've persisted with them, and I have an open case with the state authority. All interactions have been respectful. But when we went through an entire day hour-by-hour, her response to me was "This Energy Manager [monitoring tool] is a tool for you to use and not meant to be taken as entirely accurate." Seriously...

The Public Utilities Commission has an open case, and they might come back with some resolve, but I figured I'd see what you have to say. It seems to me that your POCO reports to you what you generate? Mine doesn't. I've asked them to install the meter that does that, and they haven't returned my phone calls. I've spent hours on hold to try to get that answer.

I would be 100% happy if they just told me how much I was generating and how much I was using... So I could compare it to my other numbers and everyone was accountable.

1.) Yes.
2.) That sounds, to me anyway, like a B.S. answer from the POCO. What happens if you leave in mid spring/early summer for a month ? What happens if you go on a conservation rampage ? Seems that, particularly if your billing is more often than 1X/yr., some surplus for some billing periods might show a net surplus generation provided your net usage was close to likely system generation. Are you sure your bills list no consumption ? That seems odd, especially if other customer's bills do list usage/generation.
When you say the PUC does not agree, what/who do they not agree with, your position or the POCO's ?
3.) Understood. Buy and read "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" - ~ $20 at bookstores or Amazon, etc. You need some self education. You'll get B.S.'d less by everyone, or at least get a better idea of what B.S. smells and looks like.
4.) If the meter was not swapped out, I'd question whether it is fit for the purpose of recording excess generation. Seems like from what you write, it does not. But that would then raise, at least in my mind, the possibility that you are being billed for power going in either direction.
5.) If the situation is already with higher authority, I'd suggest you let the system take its course as you,ve stated. In the meantime, do your own research, particularly with respect to learning more of the technical side of the issue and not rely solely on semi - anonymous information from unvetted sources such as forums like this.

Take what you want of the above. Scarp the rest.