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  • Waterfall pump system advice requested

    Hi folks. new here...
    I am setting up a backyard pond and waterfall. I plan to run it either using solar or going with house electricity. Seems like the solar setup has gotten very complex...

    First the solar...
    Current plan is a Renogy 100W panel. The pump I have is a 12V 5A Rule 1000GPH bilge pump.

    I want the pump to run during the day only. We don't need it running at night.
    It appears I have several options for putting this together, none of which seem to be right. LOL...

    1. Connect panel directly to pump with no controller - might be too much or too little voltage with resultant pump issues.

    2. Connect panel to charge controller like the Renogy wanderer, put in a small battery (~18AH battery, which is NOT powerful enough to run the pump very long) then connect the pump to the battery. But then I don't have an on/off control.

    3. Connect panel to charge controller like Renogy VS1024BN, then connect pump to load terminals (rated for 10A load). But again, no on/off control.

    4. Set up option 2 above, but put a photocell inline with the pump. 2 problems there; one, the photocells turn things OFF during the day instead of on, and two, I doubt the photocell would last long with 8 amps running through it.

    5. Set up option 2 above, but again with a photocell, but this time add a relay of some kind that will allow the pump current to bypass the photocell and let the photocell trigger the relay. But the relay would then have control voltage flowing through it either all day or all night (depending on how those things work). Plus, relay choices are daunting, and this is getting very complex. I'd like the final product to be reasonably stable.

    6. Set up option 2 above, but this time with a DC timer. Doesn't account for changing amounts of daylight. Seems like the easiest at the moment.

    7. Set up option 2 above, but put in a large enough battery to run the system all day. But that is PRICEY.

    I'm probably looking at $3-500 to do all that. I can get a decent AC pump, a timer, and the necessary hardware for about $200 and it's easy to set up.

    I wish I could make the solar less trouble. I am open for suggestions.
    I am getting a grid-tie system in place in the next few months, so even the AC pump would end up solar operated...

    Thanks!

  • #2
    Use a linear current boost (LCB) between the solar panel and the pump. It will help boost the current (by dropping the voltage) to get the pump started in the morning, and run it longer in the afternoon. Solar Converters PPT 12/24-7 comes to mind. ($100)
    Solar Queen
    altE Store

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CharlieKaiser View Post
      Hi folks. new here...
      I am setting up a backyard pond and waterfall. I plan to run it either using solar or going with house electricity. Seems like the solar setup has gotten very complex...

      First the solar...
      Current plan is a Renogy 100W panel. The pump I have is a 12V 5A Rule 1000GPH bilge pump.

      I want the pump to run during the day only. We don't need it running at night.
      It appears I have several options for putting this together, none of which seem to be right. LOL...

      1. Connect panel directly to pump with no controller - might be too much or too little voltage with resultant pump issues.

      2. Connect panel to charge controller like the Renogy wanderer, put in a small battery (~18AH battery, which is NOT powerful enough to run the pump very long) then connect the pump to the battery. But then I don't have an on/off control.

      3. Connect panel to charge controller like Renogy VS1024BN, then connect pump to load terminals (rated for 10A load). But again, no on/off control.

      4. Set up option 2 above, but put a photocell inline with the pump. 2 problems there; one, the photocells turn things OFF during the day instead of on, and two, I doubt the photocell would last long with 8 amps running through it.

      5. Set up option 2 above, but again with a photocell, but this time add a relay of some kind that will allow the pump current to bypass the photocell and let the photocell trigger the relay. But the relay would then have control voltage flowing through it either all day or all night (depending on how those things work). Plus, relay choices are daunting, and this is getting very complex. I'd like the final product to be reasonably stable.

      6. Set up option 2 above, but this time with a DC timer. Doesn't account for changing amounts of daylight. Seems like the easiest at the moment.

      7. Set up option 2 above, but put in a large enough battery to run the system all day. But that is PRICEY.

      I'm probably looking at $3-500 to do all that. I can get a decent AC pump, a timer, and the necessary hardware for about $200 and it's easy to set up.

      I wish I could make the solar less trouble. I am open for suggestions.
      I am getting a grid-tie system in place in the next few months, so even the AC pump would end up solar operated...

      Thanks!
      option #1 looks OK to me if you can find panel with matching voltage/wattage and if you (or your better half) don't care that your fountain becomes cloud dependent. Panels produce more or less constant voltage for this application with limited current which depends on irradiance and panel rating. You can even short the panel and it won't damage it however long that short exists. Your panel can produce 7A max when shorted in full sun, your motor needs 3A to run and probably 6A to start so with this setup you might end up with sun shining but motor not running due to panel not able to produce enough starting current. At that point you can buy second panel of the same type ans simply connect their outputs in parallel doubling the current they can produce. This x2 current won't damage your pump motor as the current in the circuit will be limited by the pump motor- it will be taking as much as needed, not as much as available. This solution will auto- turn on/off your pump based on sun shining automatically, you'd get your 7-14A 'photocell' for free .

      battery would solve the starting problem and also 'smooth out' peaks and troughs in sun irradiation but you need to use 'smart' enough controller able to shut down load to prevent over- discharge (and overcharge of course). This way you can choose battery capacity and its lowest SOC level in such a way that your system will be running only short time after sunset and then it will be auto- shutdown by the controller. It will not start immediately after sunrise as battery would need some time to charge (<1hr) but then it will be smooth sailing as 100W panel provides x3 times energy your pump needs so it will be enough to support battery charge + your pump at the same time. Your pump would take 3Ah battery capacity to run for that extra hour at the end of day. With min SOC 80% it would require x5 as big 12V battery which is 15 Ah or whatever close standard size you can find. Since the sun irradiation decreases a lot towards the end of day I'd expect it to turn off the pump even before sun sets. If you need it to 'track' the sun more closely you could put second panel so they both would produce more power at low irradiation levels. Controller needs to have another feature limiting charge current as 200W of panels at full sun would output close to 14A charge current which is too high for 15Ah lead acid battery. Or you could use standard 60Ah car battery and have your fountain running continuously overnight.

      I wouldn't go into relays/photocells for this project if the problem can be solved without. In general I'd expect 'photocell' come as photocell controlled relay which would have 2 poles so you'd have both connected and disconnected contacts at the same time. IMO it's overkill for this application.
      Last edited by max2k; 08-23-2017, 12:26 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Amy@altE View Post
        Use a linear current boost (LCB) between the solar panel and the pump. It will help boost the current (by dropping the voltage) to get the pump started in the morning, and run it longer in the afternoon. Solar Converters PPT 12/24-7 comes to mind. ($100)
        his panel is 12V so unless he buys another one and connects them in series he has no voltage to lose but then he could simply connect that second panel in parallel and have enough current even without booster. If he had single 36V grid tie type panel then it would be different story.

        my bad- despite the name Vmp of that panel is 18.9 V @ 5.xx A so the booster would have room to breathe and will be useful in case panel can't provide enough starting current. Kind of steep at $100 for such simple device.
        Last edited by max2k; 08-23-2017, 12:22 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Put a 12 VDC voltage regulator ($15 tops) between the panel and pump and call it a day. No battery, switch, or photocell. Happy bubbling.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by AzRoute66 View Post
            Put a 12 VDC voltage regulator ($15 tops) between the panel and pump and call it a day. No battery, switch, or photocell. Happy bubbling.
            if it's switchable regulator- yes, as it would increase output current at the expense of voltage drop- 'current booster' mentioned earlier. Linear one will just heat up the environment.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CharlieKaiser View Post
              I can get a decent AC pump, a timer, and the necessary hardware for about $200 and it's easy to set up.
              You posted the cheapest and most practical solution in your own post (quoted above). It makes absolutely no sense to go stand-alone solar for this project when grid A/C is easily available. If you want to "feel" like you are not wasting grid energy then add another panel on the roof when you install your grid tie system in the near future.

              Dave W. Gilbert AZ
              6.63kW grid-tie owner

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by azdave View Post

                You posted the cheapest and most practical solution in your own post (quoted above). It makes absolutely no sense to go stand-alone solar for this project when grid A/C is easily available. If you want to "feel" like you are not wasting grid energy then add another panel on the roof when you install your grid tie system in the near future.
                AC solution would be the most rational, fully agree.

                OTOH things like this also available: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Voltage-8...75.c100623.m-1

                for under $20 and 1 month of delivery + panel OP can have panel feeding DC pump. I do realize AC motor would probably be inherently more reliable as AC current already provides variable magnetic field while DC motor would have commutator in one shape or the other so this is more for illustration only.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Lots of good info, thanks, folks. What really surprised me in my research was the utter lack of "dawn-to-dusk" devices. I figured that would be a no-brainer but boy, was I wrong. Given the low draw of the TotalPond 120v pump I've found I'm going with the AC system using the Intermatic ST01 timer. Simplicity rules in this case. Thanks again.
                  BTW; getting a 15KW home system in the next few months. I'll post about that in a while...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As a side note while you are designing for daytime use only - it sure seems that all of my friends that went down this path ended up wanting Koi fish later on down the road - and those are 24/7 setups and the unbelievable value of their fish is mind blowing....

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