Correct my math please, my wife doesnt believe me.

[TAB Mech]

Pricing

Here in Ontario, I can generally quote at under $6.00 installed on a residential flush roof mount grid tie system. That is will all the costs included (electric disconect/reconnect, building permits, engineering requirements plus materials and labour)

[Schott Insider]

Costs are variable based on region and components being used. Comparing pricing from CA, NJ, and Ontario would be a fool's errand.

[ionized]

http://www.solarbuzz.com/Customer.htm

[russ]

Costs are variable based on region and components being used. Comparing pricing from CA, NJ, and Ontario would be a fool's errand.

Permits, state fees, engineering requirements and labor I can see being different from area to area even within a state.

Panels, inverters, racking should not change but with transportation added on.

Trying to get reliable information on Schuco in my location is a joke - it is all black magic with prices set in a small dark and smoke filled room. Customer to customer prices can vary greatly. Company policy seems to be to milk the customer to the extent the sales manager thinks possible. They don't even post manuals etc on the company site out of Germany - all is with held to the maximum extent possible.

The net is great for learning costs to see what you are really paying for - be dumb not to use it.

Russ

[Schott Insider]

Permits, state fees, engineering requirements and labor I can see being different from area to area even within a state.

Panels, inverters, racking should not change but with transportation added on.

They do simply because most manufacturers provide volume discounts. The installer that is doing 1MW/year will pay higher prices than the installer who does 10MW. If you live in a region with minimal solar adoption, unless you're very sophisticated in procurement, you will most likely be paying more for components -- in addition to everything you mentioned above.

it is all black magic with prices set in a small dark and smoke filled room.

I can't, and won't, speak for any other manufacturers but SCHOTT Solar does not publish price lists anywhere. PV is truly a global product and everything from supply constraints in the value chain (especially with Si, which we saw just a short few years ago) through currency valuations and even other region's policies can play a hand in pricing. Just think about how Spain drove the price down and what Germany has done to keep the prices higher. Pricing is very dynamic and is a constant balancing act to ensure profitability not only for the manufacturer but also the installer and end customer.

The net is great for learning costs to see what you are really paying for - be dumb not to use it.

Here's a hint: company earnings reports are even better.

[ionized]

Tell me if I am wrong. The vast bulk of the cost of PV is the panels, followed by inverters. Everything else is small potatoes in a typical installation. Panels and inverters, especially the former, seem to be very competitively priced. That leaves little room for different pricing between different installers on a similar building.

Of course, you can't compare apples to oranges for installations. I would never dream of comparing the price for my house to a project in Africa, that we are working on, and has PV going up this spring. If there is a good reason to expect PV costs to be very different between FL and LA, or for that matter any other US state, I would like to know it. That would be ignoring state-specific tax or other benefits, of course.

I got a couple of quotes for my home last year. On a $/kW basis, they were essentially identical. There were too many variables at that point to go ahead (roof decisions still to be made, mostly). I will probably go with the installer that seems to be most flexible with my unique situation and that will probably be a smaller guy rather than the big dog in the neighborhood.

[Schott Insider]

Tell me if I am wrong. The vast bulk of the cost of PV is the panels, followed by inverters. Everything else is small potatoes in a typical installation. Panels and inverters, especially the former, seem to be very competitively priced. That leaves little room for different pricing between different installers on a similar building.

You're not wrong at all.
But for the same reason that a high volume car dealership can get you a better discount than a low volume dealership, component costs can fluctuate.

You also need to consider the sophistication of the company doing the install. If you're in NJ you have a hyper-competitive environment with a lot of very sophisticated companies who have good volume discounts (and are buying direct), in-house design/engineering teams, and in-house laborers. Compare that to, let's say, SC which has an absolute minimum of PV installers and therefore little competition, little bulk buying power (and are probably buying through distribution), and subbing out a lot of the design, electrical, and install work and all the sudden your install cost in SC could be as much as 50% more for an apples to apples installation.

[russ]

Panels should be about 33 to 40% of the cost.

There is no reason at all for panels to cost more than one of the large online retailers charge plus freight. You can always supply them to your installer.

As I have pointed out before, I think too many people trying to get a markup percentage screws up the end price.

So much has been made out of 'green jobs' that some in the business are expecting to get rich quick.

Permits etc can get expensive. Depending on the state/county/city or whatever.

I do not like it when retailers do not have a price list. Manufacturers should not but retailers should.

New Jersey with the union labor requirements should be expensive. I do not agree with the SC example at all unless you go to a small town back in the hills somewhere.

Russ

[Schott Insider]

There is no reason at all for panels to cost more than one of the large online retailers charge plus freight. You can always supply them to your installer.

Yes - you can certainly use the online retailers as a point of reference.

As I have pointed out before, I think too many people trying to get a markup percentage screws up the end price.

So much has been made out of 'green jobs' that some in the business are expecting to get rich quick.

Absolutely agreed. I have conversations with individuals on almost a weekly basis who want to "break into solar" and my advice is always - figure out how to add value to the equation. It's a market of literal pennies. If you're not doing something to add value, you'll get passed over very, very, very quickly. The distribution model is great, only if the distributors do more than flip materials. That doesn't work.

I do not agree with the SC example at all unless you go to a small town back in the hills somewhere.

Isn't that pretty much all of SC? (I'm from there originally, so I can knock it).

If you compare the installer base in Charleston, you can count those guys on one hand. Now if you count those installers who are procuring more than 5MW annually, you don't even need a finger to count them (unless I'm completely missing something).

Now do that exercise in NJ. Installer base? You're not only using your hands, feet, but also using teeth and maybe even hairs on your head. 5MW + guys - there's easily over a dozen. That drives the price down for everyone.

[russ]

I am originally from OR but had a home in Charlotte, NC for many years. Liked the city - when you get out in the small towns it can get strange.

Of course that is the same in OR. The town close to where I grew up was all of 2,000 people. Everyone knew everyone else's business or at least wanted to. The grandmothers big excitement was watching the neighbor's kid get home late at night and then calling friends the next morning to relay the 'news'.

Last time we visited there (my wife's first time in rural USA) she commented, 'You did well to get away from here'.

Russ

[ionized]

You both make some good points. I would have guessed that the panel cost is a higher percentage so I am glad that I asked.

I understand about the volume discounts and that is why I was pleasantly surprised to see that the big-dog installer was so close in price to the smaller guy. I think that my current preferred guy has his own crew, but will suffer in some respects from being smaller. The big dog might have their own bucket truck, for example. He is an EE and a master electrician. I have talked to him enough to be able to tell that he is a smart, young guy. I think that he has the technical end down pretty well. His biggest issue is probably running the business end.

My needs as a customer are different than most. I need to know why, and I expect that kind of service from contractors. I will trust their judgment if they can explain why they are making their choices for my house. I guess you can call it

[russ]

@ ionized -

Some panel prices I just collected.


watts per panel cost per watt
Evergreen 205 586 $2,86
Kyocera 215 610 $2,84
Kyocera 205 560 $2,73
Kyocera 210 546 $2,60
Kyocera 225 580 $2,58
Solarworld 230 640 $2,78
Solarworld 235 650 $2,77
Trina 230 580 $2,52
Sharp 235 725 $3,09
Solarworld 245 670 $2,73

If a system installed cost is talked about as being in the 6$ to 7$ range per watt then the above prices equate to between 36% and 44% of the total cost.

Russ

[ionized]

You have to dig for it, but solarbuzz reported their average SP price from this month's survey is $265/Watt.

[Schott Insider]

There are lots of solar installers to choose from where I am. It is probably due to the fact that the state is offering 50% of the cost back on income taxes. I suspect that some of them are going to go away as fast as the popped up.

Sounds like you're doing the right due diligence. Also check that they are licensed and insured and ask for some addresses of installations they've done. Drive by, see how the installation looks (are the wire runs clean, arrays straight, is the roof in good shape) and if the owner is around - stop and ask how it went. How is the system performing, were deadlines met, etc. Most owners are very proud of their systems and love to show them off / help folks out.

I didn't dig too deep into the Solarbuzz report, but the numbers seem a little high to me in the US. If it also includes European sales (stronger market and Euro valuatoin compared to USD) then the numbers seem a bit more in line.

Also - check out http://www.affordable-solar.com/ for current pricing.

[Jason]

to add on to schott solar insider:

Google "secretary of state *insert state*" and look at the business listing to see when they got into business and if their business is active.

next, Google "contractor license board *insert state*" to see if they have their proper contracting license.

Check out BBB

Google the company name and scroll through a few pages to lookout for bad reports regarding the company in question.

Doing this will easily tell you how long these installers have had their licensing and if they are the real deal or just started last week.