Solar setup advice - redo thread

[iuc]

Let me start over. I started a thread yesterday asking for advice on a solar setup to power a PoE camera, PoE switch, and cellular modem. Moderator, feel free to delete the old post. old Thread Locked, Mod
I have revised the items that will be used. The following items (full specs attached) need to be powered 24x7 in a location near Fort Worth, TX.

1) Axis P5635-E camera - IEEE 802.3at Type 2 Class 4 Camera consumption: typical 8 W, max 21 W Multi-connector cable: 20W

2) Mikrotik PoE lite -The board accepts powering from the power jack or from the first Ethernet port (Passive PoE):  direct-input power jack (5.5mm outside and 2mm inside, female, pin positive plug) accepts 6-30V DC  first Ethernet port accepts passive Power over Ethernet accepts 6-30V DC The power consumption of this device under maximum load is up to 3W

Sierra Wireless RV50 - Uses less than 1W when idle. Not much more than that in the spec sheet.

Would the Morningstar TriStar TS-MPPT-60 Charge Controller be a good controller for this setup? What batteries and panels would be a good fit for a 24v setup to power this configuration?

[NEOH]

Step #1 = Determine your Daily Loads
YOU need to calculate the KWH consumed by each device per day using ...
KWH / day = (average) Watts x 24 hours

So do the math below, for each device, and show in your REPLY:

Device #1 - ? KWH / day = AVG Watts x 24 hours ( Axis P5635-E Camera )
Device #2 - ? KWH / day = AVG Watts x 24 hours ( Microtik Poe lite )
Device #3 - ? KWH / day = AVG Watts x 24 hours ( Sierra Wireless )
================================================== ========
Total KWH / day = ?

[Sunking]

Ok continuing on from the last post. Now that you shaved shaved power things change quite a bit. But lets shave it all the way down.

ANSWER THIS QUESTION PLEASE..Can you build the thing, them measure the actual power?

We can save you big bucks and it will work. No need for a 60 amp controller at 24 volt battery which also changes things a bunch and just saved you some more big bucks because you would only need a Morningstar Sun Saver 15 Amp MPPT Controller, some $300 less expensive and can handle up to 400 watts @ 24 volts, 200 at 12 volts. If we can shave you down to 15 watts here is what it wil take.

Panel Wattage = 200. As low as we can go with a 24 volt battery. IT MUST BE A 72 Cell panel. Or two 100 watt 12 volt 36 cell battery panels wired in series.
Morningstar Sun Saver 15 Amp MPPT Charge Controller.
24 volt 70 to 80 AH Battery. A pair of 12 volt 70 to 80 AH batteries wired in series. Something like a pair of Trojan 24MTX or US Battery US 24DC XC2. You could go with AGM but that is about twice the cost.

[iuc]

Ok continuing on from the last post.

ANSWER THIS QUESTION PLEASE..Can you build the thing, them measure the actual power?

Absolutely, the camera should be here by the end of the week. Hopefully I can get this answer by next weekend. Does the SunSaver model have the ability to send email/text alerts like the TriStar series? Also, I put the wrong model... I meant the Tristar30 not 60. Thanks again!

[iuc]

Step #1 = Determine your Daily Loads
YOU need to calculate the KWH consumed by each device per day using ...
KWH / day = (average) Watts x 24 hours

So do the math below, for each device, and show in your REPLY:

Device #1 - ? KWH / day = AVG Watts x 24 hours ( Axis P5635-E Camera )
Device #2 - ? KWH / day = AVG Watts x 24 hours ( Microtik Poe lite )
Device #3 - ? KWH / day = AVG Watts x 24 hours ( Sierra Wireless )
================================================== ========
Total KWH / day = ?

Ok. The literature is somewhat vague IMO as far as wattage goes. The Axis is probably the most precise of all with Sierra Wireless being the most ambiguous. I am going to take Sunking's advice and measure the system to see what these devices actually draw.

[Sunking]

Absolutely, the camera should be here by the end of the week. Hopefully I can get this answer by next weekend.

Great. Let's stretch that out a bit. What are your capabilities to measure current or power over time?

What I am driving at here need to now a running average. I assume you are transmitting live video continuously, pictures, what? Is it in burst, periodic. Example idle 30 seconds, then sends a picture, live video using constant power, what? You need that time element or duty cycle. Like 15 watts for 10 seconds on, 5 watts idle for 20 seconds.

Does the SunSaver model have the ability to send email/text alerts like the TriStar series? Also, I put the wrong model... I meant the Tristar30 not 60. Thanks again!

I do not think so. If you need that pay up for the 30 amp that meets your requirements. At 24 volt battery is good up to 1200 watts input. Lots of room to grow.

[iuc]

Great. Let's stretch that out a bit. What are your capabilities to measure current or power over time?

What I am driving at here need to now a running average. I assume you are transmitting live video continuously, pictures, what? Is it in burst, periodic. Example idle 30 seconds, then sends a picture, live video using constant power, what? You need that time element or duty cycle. Like 15 watts for 10 seconds on, 5 watts idle for 20 seconds.

This is going to be a jobsite camera that customers can use to monitor site conditions and progress. It will get used mostly during the day in bursts as users login. I plan to use an SD card for night and weekend recordings and it will send still photos of any activity that triggers the alarm during that time frame.

I was thinking about the best way to measure the power. I really need to setup a small bench test area for working with DC. Do you have any suggestions on equipment or must-have items? If this prototype works as planned there will be more to build.

[Sunking]

OK Luc I think we can pretty safely say we can downscale a bit here. Your system is going to have 2 power levels of Idle and Busy. More Idle than Busy. What you have to do is figure out a Idle and Busy hours in a 24 hour day or even an hour

Let's say at Idle uses 7 watts, and Busy is 15 watts. So in a 24 hour day we se Idle = 23.66 hours, and , and Busy = 0.34 hours.

OK 7 watts @ 23.66 hours = 166 Watt Hours. 15 watts x .34 hours = 5.1 watt hours. Daily total = 166 + 5.1 = 171.1 watt hours.

OK I am not say you have to watch the thing for r24 hours. Be nice if you had equipment you could put the thing in action for a week and measure power. Basically you just need to find out how much power it uses in IDLE and BUSY. Then see how long 1 Busy Cycle is by measuring the time it takes to send in a picture. Last piece is a WAG on how many pictures it sends in on a 24 hour day. Say it takes 15 seconds and you send 100 pictures a day. 100 pics x 15 seconds = 1500 seconds / 3600 seconds-hour = 0.42 hours Busy and 23.58 hours Idle.

To measure power, you can do by measuring Current from the battery in Idle and Busy intervals. Power = Voltage x Current. We know Voltage is Constant or Fixed at around 24 volts. So if we see say .29 amps @ Idle, and .6 amps @ Busy then we know Idle Power = 24 volts x .29 amps = 7 watts, and Busy = 24 volts x .6 amps = 14.4 watts.

Understand?

For a 180 watt hours makes thing much smaller and less expensive. That is why it is so important to know what you need. No tonly so we can make sure it is large enough, but not to large that waste money. You want to error on over size, not come up short. Think of it like flying a plane and fuel. You need more gas than it takes, but not to much more or we waste fuel and add cost. At 180 wat hours per day we are down to:

Panel Wattage = 100 watts. Would have to be 2 x 50 watt 12 volt panels wired in series for 24 volt battery
Controller 10 amps.
24 volt 40 AH Battery

We get this low and we should probably be looking at 12 volt battery if possible. 24 volt does not work well until you get up to 500 watts of panels.

[iuc]

OK Luc I think we cam pretty safely say we can downscale a bit here. Your system is going to have 2 power levels of Idle and Busy. More Idle than Busy. What you have to do is figure out a Idle and Busy hours in a 24 hour day or even an hour

Let's say at Idle uses 7 watts, and Busy is 15 watts. So in a 24 hour day we se Idle = 23.66 hours, and , and Busy = 0.34 hours.

OK 7 watts @ 23.66 hours = 166 Watt Hours. 15 watts x .34 hours = 5.1 watt hours. Daily total = 166 + 5.1 = 171.1 watt hours.

OK I am not say you have to watch the thing for r24 hours. Be nice if you had equipment you could put the thing in action for a week and measure power. Basically you just need to find out how much power it uses in IDLE and BUSY. Then see how long 1 Busy Cycle is by measuring the time it takes to send in a picture. Last piece is a WAG on how many pictures it sends in on a 24 hour day. Say it takes 15 seconds and you send 100 pictures a day. 100 pics x 15 seconds = 1500 seconds / 3600 seconds-hour = 0.42 hours Busy and 23.58 hours Idle.

To measure power, you can do by measuring Current from the battery in Idle and Busy intervals. Power = Voltage x Current. We know Voltage is Constant or Fixed at around 24 volts. So if we see say .29 amps @ Idle, and .6 amps @ Busy then we know Idle Power = 24 volts x .29 amps = 7 watts, and Busy = 24 volts x .6 amps = 14.4 watts.

Understand?

It would be nice to watch this thing in action and measure the power use. What types of devices exist to data log DC power consumption? Would something like this Eary Professional DC 0-30V Voltage Data Logger work? I know there is much more sophisticated equipment on the market for measuring this type of power. Since this build is a prototype for future builds, I can tolerate some amount of overkill. The Tristar MPPT series has the ability to data log power consumption. The MPPT60 is the only unit with an ether port built in, but the MPPT30 has an optional device to connect ether for $159. At that point I am $58 dollars away from the price of the MPPT60. Would the extra expense (let's just say $250) be worth it for the remote data logging capabilities? On future builds I would know exactly what kind of power I am using. Some customers might want different setups and I could us this prototype to measure the additional equipment draw and then size the new system accordingly.

For this particular prototype, let's just assume it's going to be busy for a full 6 hours per day. 7 watts @ 18 hours = 126 Watt Hours. 15 watts @ 6 hours = 90 watt hours. Daily total = 126 + 90 = 216 watt hours. What would it take to build that setup with the TriStar MPPT controller? I know you said a 72 cell panel was very important. Is there a particular brand or type of panel you would lean towards?

As far as batteries go, would two of the Trojan 24MTX be sufficient?

Thanks

[Sunking]

It would be nice to watch this thing in action and measure the power use. What types of devices exist to data log DC power consumption? Would something like this Eary Professional DC 0-30V Voltage Data Logger work?

yeah that should work. How is your code writing? Arduino or Teensy would work...

I know there is much more sophisticated equipment on the market for measuring this type of power. Since this build is a prototype for future builds, I can tolerate some amount of overkill. The Tristar MPPT series has the ability to data log power consumption. The MPPT60 is the only unit with an ether port built in, but the MPPT30 has an optional device to connect ether for $159. At that point I am $58 dollars away from the price of the MPPT60. Would the extra expense (let's just say $250) be worth it for the remote data logging capabilities? On future builds I would know exactly what kind of power I am using. Some customers might want different setups and I could us this prototype to measure the additional equipment draw and then size the new system accordingly.

That will work if the wallet can take the pain. A commercial unit would just use a micro-controller like Arduino or Teensy

For this particular prototype, let's just assume it's going to be busy for a full 6 hours per day. 7 watts @ 18 hours = 126 Watt Hours. 15 watts @ 6 hours = 90 watt hours. Daily total = 126 + 90 = 216 watt hours. What would it take to build that setup with the TriStar MPPT controller? I know you said a 72 cell panel was very important. Is there a particular brand or type of panel you would lean towards?

As far as batteries go, would two of the Trojan 24MTX be sufficient?

Thanks

OK with:

• 200 watt Panel
• Minimum 10 Amp MPPT Controller. Larger is just fine a slong as your wallet does not squeal. It gives you room to grow. It is a Prototype and Proof of Concept.
• 24 volt 80 AH Battery. Most likely 2 x 12 volt 80 AH batteries wire din series. Look around you can find 24 volt batteries. Warning a 24 volt 80 AH battery is heavy, around 110 to 130 pounds. 12 volt is half that weight x 2

Would give you up to 400 Watt Hours per day easily assuming you get unobstructed Sun from Dusk to Dawn and do not live in Seattle orr Portland Minimum 3 Sun Hours in Winter. You have 1 catch being 24 volts. Nothing wrong with 24 volts, the issue is below 200 watts means you would need to use 2 very expensive 12 volt battery panels wired in series. 12 volt battery panels only go up to 190 watts, and 12 volts Does Not Play with 24 volts. Higher voltage Grid tied panels start at 200 watts and you need at least 72 cells which produces 36 volt minimum needed to charge 24 volt battery.

So having said that, at least a 200 watt system is the way to fo go. Grid Tied panels caos half that of Battery Panels and range in size of 200 to 350 watts for a single panel. You also benefit of only needing hardware for 1 panel instead of 2 or 4 battery panels. Understand?

[iuc]

yeah that should work. How is your code writing? Arduino or Teensy would work...

My code writing is non existent. Luckily my business partner is a former software developer... I am sure he could make his way through it if need be.

That will work if the wallet can take the pain. A commercial unit would just use a micro-controller like Arduino or Teensy

lol. The wallet can take the pain, especially if business partner gets out of having to write any code.

OK with:

• 200 watt Panel
• Minimum 10 Amp MPPT Controller. Larger is just fine a slong as your wallet does not squeal. It gives you room to grow. It is a Prototype and Proof of Concept.
• 24 volt 80 AH Battery. Most likely 2 x 12 volt 80 AH batteries wire din series. Look around you can find 24 volt batteries. Warning a 24 volt 80 AH battery is heavy, around 110 to 130 pounds. 12 volt is half that weight x 2

Would give you up to 400 Watt Hours per day easily assuming you get unobstructed Sun from Dusk to Dawn and do not live in Seattle orr Portland Minimum 3 Sun Hours in Winter. You have 1 catch being 24 volts. Nothing wrong with 24 volts, the issue is below 200 watts means you would need to use 2 very expensive 12 volt battery panels wired in series. 12 volt battery panels only go up to 190 watts, and 12 volts Does Not Play with 24 volts. Higher voltage Grid tied panels start at 200 watts and you need at least 72 cells which produces 36 volt minimum needed to charge 24 volt battery.

So having said that, at least a 200 watt system is the way to fo go. Grid Tied panels caos half that of Battery Panels and range in size of 200 to 350 watts for a single panel. You also benefit of only needing hardware for 1 panel instead of 2 or 4 battery panels. Understand?

Sort of. How about this setup:

1ea - Astronergy CHSM6612P-310 Solar Panel
1ea - Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 Tristar
2ea - Trojan Battery 27-AGM
I have a stainless steel NEMA enclosure for the batteries, controller, hardware, etc. What type of wiring, terminals, breakers, etc would you recommend?

[Mike90250]

My code writing is non existent. Luckily my business partner is a former software developer... I am sure he could make his way through it if need be.





lol. The wallet can take the pain, especially if business partner gets out of having to write any code.




Sort of. How about this setup:

1ea - Astronergy CHSM6612P-310 Solar Panel
1ea - Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 Tristar
2ea - Trojan Battery 27-Gel > 12 Volt 91 Amp Hour Gel Battery (what is your opinion on Gel vs AGM?)
I have a stainless steel NEMA enclosure for the batteries, controller, hardware, etc. What type of wiring, terminals, breakers, etc would you recommend?

Way overkill on the controller, only need 12~15A, a small Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT SS-MPPT-15L would be a better match or the Midnight Kid

I would skip the GEL battery, and use AGM. Gel batteries develop bubbles and you loose capacity.
10A Midnight breaker for the PV. - CC
15A Midnight breaker for the CC - Battery
5A Midnight breaker for the Battery - Load (or whatever is the proper size for the load)

I specify the Midnight DC breakers because they are rated for Switch duty, and an easy way to turn stuff off and on, MPPT controllers have to boot up first, then connect the PV to them, Needs a switch, and good DC switches are hard to find, so the nice breakers will do the same job.

You may need a DIN rail to mount the breakers on

Terminals - never use them, I use the equipment connections to avoid adding extra points things can loosen up at. Most of this can be done with ordinary crimp-on Ring terminals, but the CC - Battery needs good beefy cable and crimps.

Grounding. Gee, outside, will it need lightning protection ?

[Sunking]

Grounding. Gee, outside, will it need lightning protection ?

On a serious note Mike, in this application absolutely not. Stop and think about for a minute. No Earth reference what so every. Completely Isolated from its environment electrically. From electricity POV the equipment if magically floating in space not touching anything. That means NO OUTSIDE CIRCUIT CURRENTS can flow through your equipment. Say an outside lightning fault. No place for the current to Enter or Exit.

The only current that can flow is that from the battery and that is why we use OCPD Keep it isolated and all the outside world problem goes away. At 12 volts, there is no requirements to limit voltage to ground, so we can Float It.

Now if the panels needed some protection, and/or the location like a steel pole that is grounded, you can use down conductors to bond the frames to dirt, there is still no requirement to use a Grounded System where you would dbond one polarity to ground or something in its place like the frame of a car.

Only catch is it is more expensive to Float because you are required to have OCPD on both polarities. With a Grounded System only requires 1 OCPD. But what you gain is a lot of safety and eliminated Ground Fault Circuit Interruption. With both Polarities Floating, if one or the other polarities faults to Ground, nothing happens except a visual or audible alarm to tell you have a ground fault and need to make an ordinary shutdown to make repairs. At that point you have a Grounded System and need to fix it. However once you have a Ground Fault, if the other Polarity Faults, you have a dead fault and your OCPD would operate as expected. Morro of the story is a Un-Grounded System is not prone to ground faults. Eliminate Ground all together and you get rid of a lot of problems.

[iuc]

Way overkill on the controller, only need 12~15A, a small Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT SS-MPPT-15L would be a better match or the Midnight Kid

Right, I am going with the MTTP60 because of the data logging/built in ethernet/and because this is a prototype that will get used in different applications in the future. Sunking said the same thing but we discussed all of this in the thread above.

I would skip the GEL battery, and use AGM. Gel batteries develop bubbles and you loose capacity.
10A Midnight breaker for the PV. - CC
15A Midnight breaker for the CC - Battery
5A Midnight breaker for the Battery - Load (or whatever is the proper size for the load)


I specify the Midnight DC breakers because they are rated for Switch duty, and an easy way to turn stuff off and on, MPPT controllers have to boot up first, then connect the PV to them, Needs a switch, and good DC switches are hard to find, so the nice breakers will do the same job.

You may need a DIN rail to mount the breakers on

Sounds good. I have DIN rail at the shop for other applications, this will work out well.

Grounding. Gee, outside, will it need lightning protection ?

I had just planned to put a ground plate on the bottom of this wood pole and ground the entire system... but I come from the land of AC power... sounds like there is some real debate about this.

[iuc]

[*]200 watt Panel

How about this BenQ AUO Solar PM072MWO-355 > 355 Watt Mono Solar Panel?

I am open to suggestions.