Expected installer markup

[Jafoy]

Hello

I'm collecting estimates for a solar system on my roof, and I'm a bit surprised at what appears to be installer markup on the cost of the panels themselves, and was trying to find out if this is normal.

I have limited roof space for how much energy we use, so have been pricing "normal" and "premium" systems to see what's economical, along with how much the roof can really support. The quoted systems have been pretty similar, more or less 44 Canadian Solar 290W panels with SolarEdge optimizers and inverter, and then 320W LG Neon2 panels (same #, with optimizers, one quote included a second inverter for these). The Canadian Solar quotes are similar (38/40K), and the LG quotes are similar-ish (51/55), but what seems odd is how much more expensive the LG systems are. Pricing online seems to show about a $275/panel cost for the CS, and $425/panel for the LGs. A difference of $150 per-panel x44 panels comes to $6,600, but the quotes at least double that difference.

Am I missing something in these numbers, or is this just standard markup on more premium panels? Again, one quote does include a second inverter, and the second includes a slightly pricier one. I'm in South Carolina for what it's worth.

Thanks

[solar pete]

Howdy Jafoy and welcome to Solar Panel Talk. The LG panels are a bit more expensive but I would suggest you get some more quotes have you tried our site sponsor www.solarreviews.com or www.solar-estimate.org they are a good way to get some quotes in, cheers.

[sunnyguy]

The lg 320 are only $350 on renvu. Put your negotiating hat on.

[solarix]

Renvu also has 275W Q-cell panels for $168 or 61 cents/watt. Just as durable and bankable as anything else. Why so many people go for the high end panels is beyond me.

[SunEagle]

Renvu also has 275W Q-cell panels for $168 or 61 cents/watt. Just as durable and bankable as anything else. Why so many people go for the high end panels is beyond me.

My guess is that is what the solar installers like to quote first before the customer starts to haggle with the price.

[J.P.M.]

Renvu also has 275W Q-cell panels for $168 or 61 cents/watt. Just as durable and bankable as anything else. Why so many people go for the high end panels is beyond me.

They don't know any better, see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear so that sales pitches seem to confirm what they've already about half talked themselves into. Logic mostly doesn't apply at that point. Such folks comprise the bulk of sales leads/referrals.

[foo1bar]

A difference of $150 per-panel x44 panels comes to $6,600, but the quotes at least double that difference.

44 of 290s is 12.7kW
44 of 320s is 14kW
Possibly they're including some room for possible issues with the panel tie-in and the extra inverter capacity?
Or possibly they're using their default "$3.25/W" (or whatever) and then adding on the ~$6600 price differential.

[J.P.M.]

I'd define what I needed after load reductions that fits the lifestyle I choose. Then, set a budget in terms of net out of pocket that maximizes long term bang for the buck to meet some/all of that revised load as I decided the optimum load offset to be in terms of long term cost/benefit. Then, see how much of a size/quality mix that $$ amount buys by getting quotes from reputable vendors and iterating the results until the best mix of cost/benefit for the best system quality consistent with vendor quality and cost is chosen.

What the vendor pays for equipment is not what an end user will pay for the same equipment, and in any case, that equipment cost is much less than the total vendor expense to run a business.

Or, DIY - Just know the liabilities in terms of PITAs and costs both in $$, time, warranty exposure and other things involved in doing so.

As a very oversimplified example: Say steel and plastic cost $1.00/lb. as raw materials. Now double that for labor/etc.. Does that mean a 4,000 lb. vehicle should cost $8,000 ?

Anecdotal and maybe a bit off topic: There was once an outfit called Roots Blower Co. At one time, as told to me by one of my very senior engineering mentors who once worked for that outfit, if you priced one of their small, simple, standard machines, you could get the same end user price (not the OEM price which was less) by adding up the prices of the component parts from their extensive replacement/spare parts catalog. That seemed fair until you figure the assembly/labor/a lot of the overhead etc. that was not incurred by the mfg. was rolled into the spare part price. I don't know if that's still the case. I kinda' doubt it. As with most such businesses, spare parts were a very profitable part of the enterprise. Seems to me part prices are more expensive now than back in the day.

[Jafoy]

Renvu also has 275W Q-cell panels for $168 or 61 cents/watt. Just as durable and bankable as anything else. Why so many people go for the high end panels is beyond me.

I had considered the Canadian Solar ones to be fairly middle-of-the-road, or are you talking just about the LG?

I was looking at the high-wattage ones because regardless of what I end up putting up there (assuming anything), I'll be using up all of the available roof real-estate and not offsetting all of our use. Since I'm out of space, higher-wattage seems to be the only way to add capacity, unless I'm being daft. Another thread (from southern California I believe) mentioned some LG prices not far above what I was quoted for the CS, so I asked about them (and was quoted much more).

I'm definitely open to suggestion if it sounds like I'm doing something stupid.

[sunnyguy]

Well the Canadian 6CSK mono panels are more on the high end. Of course if you are limited in space, you will be tempted to go higher efficiency, but that will raise the cost of all your kwhs produced, not just the extra kwhs. You may want to do some maths to see if it is worth it in the long run.

[sunnyguy]

Renvu also has 275W Q-cell panels for $168 or 61 cents/watt. Just as durable and bankable as anything else. Why so many people go for the high end panels is beyond me.

True, but they are poly vs mono. I would pay a little more for mono, and a little more for higher efficiency. Not 1.8x as much though.

[Jafoy]

Well the Canadian 6CSK mono panels are more on the high end. Of course if you are limited in space, you will be tempted to go higher efficiency, but that will raise the cost of all your kwhs produced, not just the extra kwhs. You may want to do some maths to see if it is worth it in the long run.

Point taken. The one (Canadian Solar) quote was listed as $2.95/watt, which seemed pretty reasonable from what I've read.

The other CS quote actually came in at $3.35/watt, I fudged some of the details to get to the price discrepancy when compared with the LG. It was actually 43 285W panels, as opposed to the 44/290, and $4K more (I remembered poorly there).

Either way, I was surprised at the price difference with the LG panels ($2.95/W -> $3.62 or $3.35 -> $4.05). I didn't even ask about SunPower, as it sounded like the premium there was even more drastic and not worth it.1

Also, I'm aware that the prices I found online for the two panels are not what the installer would pay, I was just trying to find a ballpark to make some sort of educated decision, since the installers don't actually break down the price by component (though to be fair, I haven't asked). I know I'm going to pay more for professionals to install the things, I'm just trying to get a feel for how much more. In the end installing an expensive panel doesn't seem to be much more involved than installing a cheaper one (perhaps I'm naive), so the hope was that a bit more up-front would save more in the long term. So far it looks to be something of a wash, but if I could get the prices down some it might become worth it. But again, I should probably also price out some even cheaper panels to have a low-end comparison as well.

[sunnyguy]

Yes it's hard to know details of an installer's supply chain and how hard they are willing to negotiate to get better prices for their customers. For example, if an installer or their dealer has container loads of a certain module they will push those modules hard including giving inflated bids on other equipment to make it less attractive.

$2.95/w is definitely acceptible.