LG300N1T-G4 -- T for Transparent?

[DanKegel]

Well, this is interesting: LG swapped out the opaque backsheet for a translucent one:

http://www.lg-solar.com/downloads/products/LG-NeON-2/LGE-Data%20Sheet-LG300N1T-G4-EN-03.2016.pdf

The weight is the same as their normal panels.

Googling LG300N1T shows a few sites (e.g. photovoltaik4all.de ) even have prices for 'em already;
price premium looks like it's very small.

Anyone seen 'em in the US yet?

[J.P.M.]

Well, this is interesting: LG swapped out the opaque backsheet for a translucent one:

http://www.lg-solar.com/downloads/products/LG-NeON-2/LGE-Data%20Sheet-LG300N1T-G4-EN-03.2016.pdf

The weight is the same as their normal panels.

Googling LG300N1T shows a few sites (e.g. photovoltaik4all.de ) even have prices for 'em already;
price premium looks like it's very small.

Anyone seen 'em in the US yet?

A gimmick, and IMO, deceptive, or at least disingenuous. For starters, most panels are parallel to a roof surface, and usually not more than about 6" or less off the deck, and often less or (hopefully not) flush mounted with no more than an inch or two clearance. Please explain to me how any enhancement will occur under such conditions

The blurb says "up to 25% more energy....under optimized surrounding conditions". What B.S. ! Who, or how many folks have such conditions, or want to put up with the aesthetics such optimistic #'s would require ? For that matter, how many people understand what any of that means or entails ? I'd guess close to zero.

I guess in one sense it's good you keep dredging this crap up so those with some modicum of common sense can call B.S. on it, but IMO, when you pull this crap, it's counterproductive to progress in R.E.

[adoublee]

I saw it in September at a trade show. It is a beauty if you ask me - glass on glass from a top manufacturer. Lots of applications with improved aesthetics. I would never tilt it on a tilted residential roof but canopies, ground mounts, and commercial flat roofs are all great applications if the price is all right.

[ncs55]

I can definitely see where it will have an application on commercial roofs with a TPO or any white roofing substrate. It might work better on trackers too and ground mounts with white gravel, but the gravel is usually shaded. I remember in the past there was another module that harvested from both sides also. I do not recall the brand. They were expensive compared to the competition and hard to sell for residential applications. Question, If they are glass on glass, how much heavier are they than a normal module?

[DanKegel]

Glass on glass? My impression was that it wasn't glass-on-glass, but glass-on-translucent-plastic. The weight is the same as the normal LG panels, I think.

Agreed, normally one wouldn't use these on a sloped residential roof; reverse tilt mounts are uncommon for good reason.

[Willaby]

I'd be curious as to the output from the backside only, as if they were mounted flipped. AZ has a lot of flat roof architecture whereby tilt mounts might allow more light from behind, many with white, highly reflective surfaces (as ncs55 commented). designed to reduce heat anyway.

[DanKegel]

The datasheet says the backside is about 92.5% as effective as the front side.

[DanKegel]

most panels are parallel to a roof surface, and usually not more than about 6" or less off the deck, and often less or (hopefully not) flush mounted with no more than an inch or two clearance. Please explain to me how any enhancement will occur under such conditions.

As you know, these panels are for applications where they're mounted well up off a high albedo surface, tilted. For instance, on a flat roof (many of which are very white here in Los Angeles).

I'm not sure why you think they're being pitched for flush mounted applications.

[adoublee]

Can't say I'm 100% sure the back is glass in these photos or on the shipping product. These must have some type of preliminary version as the wiring was...innovative.

[adoublee]

The UK page indicates transparent backsheet. Still useful but not as robust in my opinion if this is a US product.

www.lg-solar.com/uk/products

[ncs55]

Looking at the data sheet it seems that the efficiency is due to more than just being bi facial. They have better temp coefficients because the cells are a different chemistry, (claimed) and the 12 multi wire buss bar, Plus they are claiming less degradation although not by much. They look interesting, wonder what the price point will be? It appears to be like the Panasonic HIT. http://www.lg-solar.com/downloads/pr...EN-03.2016.pdf

[ncs55]

No, lets communicate I want to understand, I think I do. Both are cello just the different backing. And compared to before cello the coefficients are better, as a comparison to each other. Correct? We can work the problem better as a team.

[DanKegel]

Well, yeah. The efficiency is due to the NeoN 2 stuff. Even the existing Neon 2 cells were bifacial, to take advantage of light bouncing off the opaque backsheet. So all they did with the new ones was open a window, as it were.

Thanks to adoublee for posting a link to the UK site. I don't know why they aren't on the US site yet.

[ncs55]

Were on the same page, thanks for not hanging up. I see where the gap was, sorry. I was just reading the bifacial specs.

[Willaby]

I guess in one sense it's good you keep dredging this crap up so those with some modicum of common sense can call B.S. on it, but IMO, when you pull this crap, it's counterproductive to progress in R.E.

A little harsh? ! I mean it's a product of LG, a heavy in the industry. It's not like it's some snake oil you rub on your panels to increase production. Just learning about the technology that if you flip the panel over you still get ~90% production is interesting (like if your incompetent installer mounted it wrong - jk). Seriously, maybe not for 95% of applications, or maybe even 98%, but, yeah, some tilt-up's with the right architecture, I can see it.

[DanKegel]

A little harsh?

J.P.M. is assuming the worst way the panel could be marketed is how it will actually be marketed.

There's some precedent for this -- see the awful HyperX marketing -- but he's jumping the gun here, I think.

[ncs55]

J.P.M. is assuming the worst way the panel could be marketed is how it will actually be marketed.

There's some precedent for this -- see the awful HyperX marketing -- but he's jumping the gun here, I think.

I see what he is saying, but to reject an improvement in tech is very closed minded. I see that type of thinking a lot in here. The only BS I see here is J.P.M.'s comment. There are a lot of applications. No matter how the past modules were marketed. Look at the Long Beach Convention Center with all of the unisolar arrays mounted on a bright as hell white roof. (over 6000 laminates when I was there testing them) Using these modules on tilts would reduce the amount of space needed for the inverters on that flat roof. I have worked on that roof for unisolar to determine why the initial install was not performing. You go blind up there without eye protection and it would be a perfect solution.

[DanKegel]

Are you talking about their current effort, not the old ones on the canopies? I had heard they were spending $6 million on a 2MW array ( http://clkrep.lacity.org/onlinedocs/..._B_4-20-15.pdf ), didn't know it was actually happening.
Yeah, that'd be a perfect place to use bifacials.

Why *wasn't* it performing?

[J.P.M.]

As you know, these panels are for applications where they're mounted well up off a high albedo surface, tilted. For instance, on a flat roof (many of which are very white here in Los Angeles).

I'm not sure why you think they're being pitched for flush mounted applications.

I know that. I also know most folks are clueless about such things. And until LG comes along and says (as you seem to be saying) that somewhat non standard applications and installation techniques are required to obtain some or most of the possible production enhancement claimed, I say the advertising is, if not deceptive, at least disingenuous. . Look, most folks are clueless of what you seem to be assuming. I also know that people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. They will see the "up to X % more, and think it applies to all cases, not having a clue that in most every case of most any array they're likely to look at (parallel, and a few inches off a roof) any enhancement is likely to be unmeasureable.

If the price doesn't increase - OK, but the implied possible improvements are, IMO only, overstated, and it seems to me at least partially done with the idea of making it easy for most folks solar ignorance to enable them to think things may be better than they are.

[ncs55]

J.P.M. C'mon man, don't be so pessimistic about this. I have not seen LG claim anything except what is on the spec sheet. So what adverts are you referring to? I also would not consider a large commercial array on a white roof or ground mount as non standard applications either. Most consumers may be clueless, obviously in your area, and it is up to us as installers to set them straight. Some installers will pitch this and get bit in the ass very quickly as we have seen in the past. And what exactly are WE assuming anyway? I think it is you that is doing the assuming here. Have some faith that most of us learned from the past claims and mistakes. I don't know where you live but the people in SD are not as stupid as you are saying. And most folks are educating themselves before going solar. Just like the people that browse this blog looking for answers, so stop degrading them by calling them clueless. Can you please be a little more positive?

[ncs55]

Are you talking about their current effort, not the old ones on the canopies? I had heard they were spending $6 million on a 2MW array ( http://clkrep.lacity.org/onlinedocs/..._B_4-20-15.pdf ), didn't know it was actually happening.
Yeah, that'd be a perfect place to use bifacials.

Why *wasn't* it performing?

Actually I was talking about the Long Beach Convention center, sorry. I bid a repair about a year after the initial installation of the Unisolar laminates through Unisolar and the convention center, (I was one of the contractors in the SD area that was collecting data for US and doing the repairs that they directed under their warranty.) At the LBC, the production never came close to what was expected right from the start. We checked the inverters and they were fine but noticed low string voltage readings. We tested every string there for performance and while doing this we found that the string wiring #1 and #7 were crossed and the fusing was blown for each, in every combiner. About 20% of the array was not getting power to the inverters. We fixed the wiring / fusing as per US instructions and the production went up to US expected levels. But still a little less power than claimed by the manufacturer. We also found that the module cleaners were using pressure washers to clean the modules and water was pushed into the little junction box where the pos and neg wires come out of the laminates. This caused about 20 or so modules to short out. A few had actually arced from the bottom and cut through the metal substrate that was attached to the roof. It looked like a plasma cutter had been used. We pulled those off of the metal and replaced them as well and it worked fine after that. Although IMO was still a little low in production. It was a simple wiring mix-up in the end that caused the biggest problem. I still have two new laminates left over from that job, lol.

[DanKegel]

Awesome details, thanks. And did they get the cleaners to be more gentle? (Come to think of it, do you have data showing that cleaning is more helpful than harmful?)

[ncs55]

DanKegel, Awesome details, thanks. And did they get the cleaners to be more gentle? (Come to think of it, do you have data showing that cleaning is more helpful than harmful?)

As far as I know they stopped the cleaners from spraying within a foot from the J Boxes when using power washers. The problem there was constant Pidgeon poop everywhere and in mass quantities. We wore masks, gloves and the white painters suits when on that roof. It was pretty nasty. I have not collected data but I plan to. I did read a study from MIT? I think but not sure, it stated for residential systems, that it was only cost effective in most scenarios for a once a year cleaning vs more than once or not at all on average, due to the costs involved. I tend to agree with that and adopted that model as an average. I previously coupled cleanings with a complete system checkup / maintenance agreement. I piloted this maintenance program with random customers in random scenarios with great success. I stopped the pilot to adopt an even more standard approach for pricing and easy data collection. I have yet to start it again. The original customers call me frequently wanting to resume the service. I would love to have some of you guys check out what I have come up with in private, as long as you are not an installer in my area and agree to a NDA. I think it needs refining still. The biggest problem is every customer has a completely different system, roofs can be absolutely crammed and most do not have monitoring. We do not use power washers, we scrub the modules with an extendable car wash brush using biodegradable environmentally safe cleaner and rinse clean with the customers water. not the fastest way but this process gets the modules spotless.

[J.P.M.]

The datasheet says the backside is about 92.5% as effective as the front side.

92.5% of a small number is a smaller number.

How much irradiance do you think the underside of an array parallel to and 6 " off a roof gets ? A clue: not much.

How many people do you think have a glimmer of a clue that to realize any enhancement at all from the backside of one of these panels, the panels need to be non parallel to their mounting in ways that more than a few people find aesthetically unappealing ?

How many people do you think would buy this product based on claimed enhancement if LG's advertising came with photos showing array tilts or the type and location of reflective surfaces required to get close to the enhancements implied ?

How many people do you think understand the extra costs often and usually involved in what are probably non standard mounting conditions ? Given your recent cluster function experience with tilting a couple of panels, I'd think you'd be mindful of some of the practical problems.

[ncs55]

Obviously more people realize this than you think, You need to stop and get off of your white horse and quit putting people down. No one here said that they would gain anything crammed close to a roof. You need to stop and stop now.