Bizarre Solar Question

[max2k]

Hmmm. Ok so these are all good points 20% is not alot. - and I have nothing against the sun! 8) But If I have lets say a 50w panel and a deep cycle 12v battery with a charge controller - why couldn't I use a few of these 400 w grow lights to charge it up? http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Horticu...QZZ7CVSF3Z05D8



...

Then I'll build a solar system for my dads pool

For the pool you better off to build a solar heater- to extend swimming season and buy him a variable speed pump to help with electric bill. Much cheaper overall.

Back to your project- those bulbs still convert about 10% of electric power into light, the rest will be converted to heat (additional fans to cool them off?). The heat is infrared and not useable by panels- panels have narrow spectrum band in the visible part. 400Wt metal halide will produce total 40Wt flow of light which will be spread all over the place. 400Wt is how much it consumes, not how much it produces . If you put it in some reflector (hang it in focus plane of parabolic pipe with fans on both end to move the air through and it will form more or less parallel beam of light) so at least 80% will reach the panel then the panel will extract 20% of electric power out of it. Your overall efficiency: 10% x reflector efficiency (80%) x 20% = 1.6%. BTW 50W panel means how much it produces, not how much light it can tolerate. Given panel's efficiency 50W panel requires 250W of light flow- you'd need about 8 those 400Wt projectors to lit it up all using some kind of reflector to direct their output. We're talking about 3kW power consumption- at 110V AC you'd need couple standard 15A outlets connected to independent lines to feed the beast. I'd like to come to see it light up, must be spectacular show- it will be really, really bright. You're trying to compete with the Sun after all .

[max2k]

Honestly, for an art exhibit that has plug in power available, I would make the whole thing a show. Hang your panel on with lights on it, just don't hook it up to anything with real wire. Include a battery if you want. Plug the pump in.

Is this how it's done? That portable Sun equivalent OP is after sounds more and more dangerous, soon we'll realize some kind of fusion reaction wouldn't hurt .

[cjpritch88]

Wow - Mabie I should set up my Mig welder with the gun on a tripod on full blast against some 1" plate of stainless steel?

I had no Idea how much power this would take - Its really wasteful... and I could just run a solar panel outside or I could just get a pump thats 110AC.... Or I could fake it..... But I do honestly like the insanity of it - It reminds me of LA and the insane amount of resources the movie industry will use just to get a 10 second shot for a movie...


Thanks for the ideas and info - I have alot to think about now.

Cheers

[Living Large]

The statement you are making to me is how to waste energy by trying to super-inefficiently run a pump.

This is actually a very accurate assessment, though it recognized that you are new newbie and would not have known better, and it isn't what you wanted to hear. You did receive excellent and helpful advice, however.

[cjpritch88]

This is actually a very accurate assessment, though it recognized that you are new newbie and would not have known better, and it isn't what you wanted to hear. You did receive excellent and helpful advice, however.

I agree - I did receive excellent advice. And I thank everyone here for it.

I understand my project is against the ethos of sustainability and using solar panels in general - so I'm not surprised in that I received a few curt responses towards my project. You haft to understand, however, that where I'm from - in los angeles - sustainability is a fashion fad and often manifests these massive ironies. People replace their lawns, not with desert gardens, but with high quality astroturf made from petroleum. People set up solar panels to water their lawns or run fountains outside their house which is totally wasteful considering we are in the middle of a record breaking drought, and then they say I've gone solar! This drought is massive - It's been coming for a long time but most people continue to have pools and water lawns. And LA in general was a city built in the middle of the desert and goes through ridiculous means to get water from hundreds of miles away. Most people don't even know where these exact sources are. We try to live blissful lives with our pools and impressively manicured lawns in this desert and expect it not to change.

Is my project wasteful - yes of course - clearly. Will it shock and upset a few people - yes of course. Do I want to continue to make art that only pleases people - no I'm tired of that and I want people to think about their own actions in contrast to their ideals. Maybe I'll post the finished piece in two weeks - I'm sure it will make good troll bait.

Thanks
-C

https://www.colemanpritchard.com

[Living Large]

You haft to understand, however, that where I'm from - in los angeles - sustainability is a fashion fad and often manifests these massive ironies. People replace their lawns, not with desert gardens, but with high quality astroturf made from petroleum. People set up solar panels to water their lawns or run fountains outside their house which is totally wasteful considering we are in the middle of a record breaking drought, and then they say I've gone solar!

Several of the people here do appreciate what you apparently see every day - and are aware there is an endless supply of people who think they are "going green" and are doing anything but that. Thank you elaborating - it provides more data to prove the point.

[Naptown]

I understand you are creating art not a sustainable power source.
However it is a noble idea but the laws of physics are going to battle you more than we ever will. And even if we bend to your thinking the laws of physics won't.
I would suggest putting a battery charger on the battery and keep it plugged in ( hidden of course)

[max2k]

I agree - I did receive excellent advice. And I thank everyone here for it.

I understand my project is against the ethos of sustainability and using solar panels in general - so I'm not surprised in that I received a few curt responses towards my project. You haft to understand, however, that where I'm from - in los angeles - sustainability is a fashion fad and often manifests these massive ironies. People replace their lawns, not with desert gardens, but with high quality astroturf made from petroleum. People set up solar panels to water their lawns or run fountains outside their house which is totally wasteful considering we are in the middle of a record breaking drought, and then they say I've gone solar! This drought is massive - It's been coming for a long time but most people continue to have pools and water lawns. And LA in general was a city built in the middle of the desert and goes through ridiculous means to get water from hundreds of miles away. Most people don't even know where these exact sources are. We try to live blissful lives with our pools and impressively manicured lawns in this desert and expect it not to change.

Is my project wasteful - yes of course - clearly. Will it shock and upset a few people - yes of course. Do I want to continue to make art that only pleases people - no I'm tired of that and I want people to think about their own actions in contrast to their ideals. Maybe I'll post the finished piece in two weeks - I'm sure it will make good troll bait.

Thanks
-C
www.colemanpritchard.com

Being against something is usually easier than being for something. I just hope you won't lose sight of your goals and simply fall into safe haven of criticizing everything you see. Some of the things you listed are not as clear cut as they made look- you aren't proposing some drastic moves to reduce population in favor of environment, are you? I have to ask as I'm still missing the proposed solution, sorry.

[cjpritch88]

Being against something is usually easier than being for something. I just hope you won't lose sight of your goals and simply fall into safe haven of criticizing everything you see. Some of the things you listed are not as clear cut as they made look- you aren't proposing some drastic moves to reduce population in favor of environment, are you? I have to ask as I'm still missing the proposed solution, sorry.

Well visual art is interesting in its abilities to arouse a diverse spectrum of responses. I think good art of the times does just this, and will arouse skepticism in some and beauty in another - sometimes both and we don't know how to process that experience at first. I'm really trying to bring up questions - not just drive a point of criticism home.

I understand you are creating art not a sustainable power source.
However it is a noble idea but the laws of physics are going to battle you more than we ever will. And even if we bend to your thinking the laws of physics won't.
I would suggest putting a battery charger on the battery and keep it plugged in ( hidden of course)

I don't want people to bend to my thinking but rather to reflect on themselves. I don't have an agenda as much as I'm trying to bring out something I see, then question that thing and manipulate materials in hopes that I can communicate something of a valuable experience to others. I certainly would like to have this system work in its purity(and its absurdity) but I understand if it cant I might haft to play the P.T. Barnum role which is o.k. This experiment has got me thinking a lot about energy and I'm excited to continue playing with its possibilities in the future.

I ordered supplies today so I'm all in. I'll be making a light box to hold 10 400w lights - mirrored on all sides and I'll be using two huge fans to move air around - I hope its enough and wont get to hot. - I wonder how hot they will get and how much heat to solar panel can take.... Time to experiment. Of course I'm open to ideas.

Also - I thought I'd share an interesting piece dealing with energy in another way - he collected rain rater on a roof and into tanks and used it to make a rainbow - the water also goes inside the gallery and waters a bristle cone pine - travels past a meteorite and make a rainbow inside the gallery too. Interesting stuff - the water system is completely worth checkin out by itself. Apparently scientists came and studied how the artist did some things and learned new things about water collection. Scroll to the right to see the whole piece. http://michaeljonesmckean.com/certai...-of-light.html

[sensij]

I ordered supplies today so I'm all in. I'll be making a light box to hold 10 400w lights - mirrored on all sides and I'll be using two huge fans to move air around - I hope its enough and wont get to hot. - I wonder how hot they will get and how much heat to solar panel can take.... Time to experiment. Of course I'm open to ideas.

10 x 400 W lights? What will you plug that into? On a 120 V circuit, that is 33 A... you'd need three relatively unloaded 15 A household circuits to power that, or maybe two 20 A circuits.

Some of the information you've gotten in this thread regarding conversion efficiency is not very good. All light is not created equal. A solar panel that only converts 15% of the sun's 1000 W/m2 may be more efficient with light at a targeted wavelength. An incandescent spectrum will be different than the sun's, and will not convert at the same rate. Metal halides are a nice choice, with ~24% conversion from electrons to visible light, and a spectrum that lands nicely in the active range of crystalline silicon. Edit: these require a ballast too.

[cjpritch88]

10 x 400 W lights? What will you plug that into? On a 120 V circuit, that is 33 A... you'd need three relatively unloaded 15 A household circuits to power that, or maybe two 20 A circuits.

Some of the information you've gotten in this thread regarding conversion efficiency is not very good. All light is not created equal. A solar panel that only converts 15% of the sun's 1000 W/m2 may be more efficient with light at a targeted wavelength. An incandescent spectrum will be different than the sun's, and will not convert at the same rate. Metal halides are a nice choice, with ~24% conversion from electrons to visible light, and a spectrum that lands nicely in the active range of crystalline silicon.

Right.. Ok - I didn't get metal Halides - I got the much cheeper http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s02 . So I'm going to use a 35Ah deep cycle battery and run tests to see how long I can run the system and how long it will take to charge the battery. I have no reason the keep it running when the gallery is closed.

Thanks for the info though. Much appreciated.

[Living Large]

Right.. Ok - I didn't get metal Halides - I got the much cheeper http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s02 . So I'm going to use a 35Ah deep cycle battery and run tests to see how long I can run the system and how long it will take to charge the battery. I have no reason the keep it running when the gallery is closed.

Thanks for the info though. Much appreciated.

Just an observation. You realize these require a ballast, correct?

[sensij]

Those lights will only work with a ballast. Here is one that would be appropriate for those bulbs, for $85. Did you buy 10 of those too?

What do you want to run with that 35 Ah battery?

[Living Large]

What do you want to run with that 35 Ah battery?

That is back in post #1 of the thread. A pump.

[cjpritch88]

Those lights will only work with a ballast. Here is one that would be appropriate for those bulbs, for $85. Did you buy 10 of those too?

What do you want to run with that 35 Ah battery?

I'm running a pump - and yes I bought 10... Are you saying I need 10 Ballasts?! These say 1000watt.