CyboInverter?

[ButchDeal]

Net metering is not consistently applied across the US. Each state and thus power company has different rules and is in the business to make a huge profit. Which is why they have the 3 tier system. They not only charge you for the amount consumed, but when consumed.

actually most states have net metering mandated and consistantly applied.
Few power companies currently have a three tier (or 4 tier) tarrif system which is NOT the same as a TOU (Time of Use) billing system which would be dealing with WHEN.

A coworker was talked into solar panels in S. California 8 years ago. He basically rented out his roof, but continues to pay the solar company close to what he would be paying the utility company.

OK?? yes there are PPAs and leases which are not the most advantageous to homeowners but sometimes are. But what does this have to do with your statements?

That is exactly why I searched for alternatives.

Well you can still be grid tied and own the system. Most people do.

No uploading, no feeding into the grid here.

But WHY do you think this is a bad thing? it is the most efficient thing possible, has the fastest return on your investment, etc.
However you can do this with many inverter systems. It is called grid zero, no feed in, etc. Almost all grid tie inverters can do it with configuration changes and addition of consumption monitoring.

And if the technology improves, I can easily upgrade without a lot out of pocket that I have to pay back first.

Many inverters can be upgraded, most have free software upgrade capabilities.
If you are just talking about the fact that you have a tiny solar system that cost very little, you could do that with most other inverters.

That's what I used to think! Then I discovered Solar Inverter Air Conditioners and also the Cybo Inverter. These two solutions *are* inexpensive from the beginning. Other approaches are very expensive up front, with the promise of an eventual ROI.

It is simple. A PV system can only be on or off grid. There are no other choices. It is binary, on or off. PV air conditions are either on or off grid. Cybo is either on or off grid.
It doesn't matter if it is inexpensive from the beginning. Why is Cybo system cheaper per watt than other systems?

Off-grid requires a large battery bank, charge controller, and really only makes sense when there is no grid.

only if you have large loads and you don't need charge controllers. They would only be required if you are doing a DC coupled system.
Seems like you are touting the grid here but other places talking about it being outdated concept.

Grid-tied is great for some, however those who benefit the most are the state (through higher property taxes), the power companies, the banks for providing the much needed financing, and of course the solar companies that sell and install the equipment. A Lot of money is made! Nothing wrong with that, so long as they are honest, but I think the solar industry already has a bit of a reputation, unfortunately.

Again you are either ON grid or OFF grid. As a cybo shill you should be able to speak more clearly and directly about the cybo system you are trying to push here on a TECHNICAL forum instead of spitting out marketing BS.

[Roark]

For huge, large scale grids, DC is used and then converted back to AC for ease of distribution.
A transformer is a much simpler device to build and maintain than a large DC-DC conversion system.
HVDC systems started development in the late 1930's
[For] the forseeable future, there are no "magical" developments ready to be used. Only little incremental 1% here and there.

I like solar energy in part because I see it challenging the power companies and the grid. Big companies, especially monopolies, should be challenged while it is possible.

I'm not looking for magic. The Cybo Inverter is working really well, and the Kill-A-Watt helps show this. It feels like some folks on here don't want to hear how happy I am because of it. With two panels, I am able to run my window air conditioner and only 80 watts drawn from the grid, instead of 500+ watts. And I have channels to plug two more panels into! : - )

In truth, we have become too dependent on the grid. Our lives literally depend on it.

Things do change. It wasn't that long ago when pay phones were the norm, and cell phones were for the very wealthy and weren't very portable (car phones).

[Roark]

What I do know is that I have neighbors who are not happy with their considerably high utility bills in S. California, and it is because of things like the 3 or 4 tier and / or TOU billing.

I can't speak for folks in other states, but from what I understand some power companies allow their customers to enter into a simple net metering agreement and don't have as short of a list of allowable equipment and companies.

PPAs and leases which are not the most advantageous to homeowners but sometimes are.
Well you can still be grid tied and own the system. Most people do.

Most people seem to be getting talked into the PPAs and leases you mention. I had a landlord who simply couldn't afford to finance the solar system, so for the use of his roof, he splits the proceeds with the solar company.

I'm not saying this is good or bad. I was just saying that it wasn't for me.

I'm not convinced that uploading to the grid is that efficient because from what I understand, at least in S. California, there is a glut of power in the middle of the day when the sun is shining and the power companies would rather not have more power uploaded, because they have little if any use for the excess power at that time of day, and no realistic way of storing it.

Anything that costs thousands and thousands of dollars with the promise of getting credits from the power company sounds to me like marketing hype.

If you are just talking about the fact that you have a tiny solar system that cost very little, you could do that with most other inverters.

Except it seems like most of the grid tied systems approved by the utility companies in S. California cost several thousand dollars for the central inverter alone, and often another $50 - $100 for a micro inverter for each panel.

The inverter air conditioners are only "on" or "tied" to the grid in that they consume power from the grid, but every attempt is made to reduce the amount of power consumed as much as possible. They are not "on" or "tied" to the grid any more than my cd player which has an ac power cord, but also has the option of being powered by 6 C cell batteries or 9 volts dc.

I am not wishing the grid to go away. On the contrary. In fact it makes no sense to go off-grid when the grid is available. I suppose off-grid is great for a remote cabin.

The Cybo Inverter pulls as little power from the grid (and as much from the solar panels) as possible. Is it off-grid? No. Is it grid-tied? No.

Why is Cybo system cheaper per watt than other systems?

I don't understand why the discussion suddenly became so competitive, suggesting things like I am wrong, I am talking about things that are irrelevant, I am just trying to advertise for Cybo Energy.

The Cybo Inverter has provided me with the alternative to what seemed to me like very limited options.

I didn't want to go off grid, but I had a 12v inverter handy so I did get some golf batteries and a charge controller. This provides me with limited emergency back up power.

I didn't want the strings attached with a grid-tie(d) approach. Like only using equipment that is approved by the power company and having thousands and thousands of dollars tied up (ha ha) in some contract with the utility company or leasing the system from a third party.

One friend of mine warned me that some solar companies won't let you sell your house until you pay them off completely first. Sort of like a lien on a car.

Again you are either ON grid or OFF grid. As a cybo shill you should be able to speak more clearly and directly about the cybo system you are trying to push here on a TECHNICAL forum instead of spitting out marketing BS.

I don't think it's that black and white. If I run a PV inverter air conditioner at night, that does not make it grid-tied. It just pulls from the grid like any other appliance would. It certainly isn't off-grid either.

I found this thread when I first learned about the Cybo Inverter and was skeptical. Some folks were so quick to point out that Cybo Energy wasn't as well known in the industry perhaps as some of the other major players. That almost kept me from purchasing the Cybo Inverter, so I am glad I still got one. I'm no shill. I'm simply sharing my positive experience about a product that I like and own outright because I didn't have to finance it, because it was affordable.

[ButchDeal]

I can't speak for folks in other states, but from what I understand some power companies allow their customers to enter into a simple net metering agreement and don't have as short of a list of allowable equipment and companies.

power companies do not have a list of allowable equipment. AHJs do and based on NEC codes and UL listing.

Most people seem to be getting talked into the PPAs and leases you mention. I had a landlord who simply couldn't afford to finance the solar system, so for the use of his roof, he splits the proceeds with the solar company.

PPAs are actually way down but regardless has little to do with the equipment.

I'm not saying this is good or bad. I was just saying that it wasn't for me.

Yes you are actually and repeatedly talking about PPAs

I'm not convinced that uploading to the grid is that efficient because from what I understand, at least in S. California, there is a glut of power in the middle of the day when the sun is shining and the power companies would rather not have more power uploaded, because they have little if any use for the excess power at that time of day, and no realistic way of storing it.

Well luckily facts are not dependent on your being convinced. They just exist.
Power companies "rather not have" also has nothing to do with it being efficient. There are plenty of uses and the grid has NOT reached saturation regardless of your bickering.

Anything that costs thousands and thousands of dollars with the promise of getting credits from the power company sounds to me like marketing hype.

You said you spent 2 thousand on your cybo system with the promise of it paying back latter.....

Except it seems like most of the grid tied systems approved by the utility companies in S. California cost several thousand dollars for the central inverter alone, and often another $50 - $100 for a micro inverter for each panel.

Again utility companies do not do the approving here. You do understand that you do not buy BOTH a central inverter AND micro inverters right. You could just purchase the micro inverter and connect the PV module, done.

The inverter air conditioners are only "on" or "tied" to the grid in that they consume power from the grid, but every attempt is made to reduce the amount of power consumed as much as possible. They are not "on" or "tied" to the grid any more than my cd player which has an ac power cord, but also has the option of being powered by 6 C cell batteries or 9 volts dc.

Right they are tied to the grid in that they consume power from the grid just like EVERY OTHER air conditioner....
a grid tie PV system will make every effort to reduce the amount of power consumed from the grid as well.
It is not like your CD play as the air conditioner does NOT have the option of being powered by battery.

I am not wishing the grid to go away. On the contrary. In fact it makes no sense to go off-grid when the grid is available. I suppose off-grid is great for a remote cabin.

You seem to make every argument possible both logical sides and a few illogical sides as well.

The Cybo Inverter pulls as little power from the grid (and as much from the solar panels) as possible. Is it off-grid? No. Is it grid-tied? No.

It is grid tied and set to not feed in. Just like you can do with Fronius, SMA, Enphase, SolarEdge and many other grid tie inverters.
The bad side of it is that you are losing out on power when your solar is producing more than you are consuming with no place to put the extra power (sink loads full etc), it would stop producing. With your small system this is going to be few times but with a larger system, much more.

I don't understand why the discussion suddenly became so competitive, suggesting things like I am wrong, I am talking about things that are irrelevant, I am just trying to advertise for Cybo Energy.

Not suggesting it. You just are wrong. You are just stating a lot of irrelevant and BS theories, and you ARE just advertising for Cybo with BS marketing speak.

The Cybo Inverter has provided me with the alternative to what seemed to me like very limited options.

great but it only SEEMED to you that the options were limited

I didn't want the strings attached with a grid-tie(d) approach. Like only using equipment that is approved by the power company and having thousands and thousands of dollars tied up (ha ha) in some contract with the utility company or leasing the system from a third party.

again the power company does NOT approve the equipment the AHJ does and your insurance company etc require UL listed equipment. if the Cybo is not UL listed then you are takeing a huge gamble. You can install a small system with other brands as well and spend just as little.

One friend of mine warned me that some solar companies won't let you sell your house until you pay them off completely first. Sort of like a lien on a car.

Again this is a PPA or lease not a purchase. Has nothing to do with the equipment but the financial vehicle used to pay for it.

I don't think it's that black and white. If I run a PV inverter air conditioner at night, that does not make it grid-tied. It just pulls from the grid like any other appliance would. It certainly isn't off-grid either.

Yes it does make it grid tied. Where do you think the power is coming from. Just like all the other appliances are grid tied and pulling power from the grid.
Something is either ON grid or OFF grid there are no other options. What you are talking about is an inverter that generates power to feed local loads only and makes sure that it never feeds the grid. It is much less efficient as power is not generated if the consumption is low.

I found this thread when I first learned about the Cybo Inverter and was skeptical. Some folks were so quick to point out that Cybo Energy wasn't as well known in the industry perhaps as some of the other major players. That almost kept me from purchasing the Cybo Inverter, so I am glad I still got one. I'm no shill. I'm simply sharing my positive experience about a product that I like and own outright because I didn't have to finance it, because it was affordable.

I own my inverter and entire system out right because I didn't have to finance it too. It isn't cybo, and unlike cybo I can run things when the grid is down even at night, and when the grid is up, I can feed into it and reduce my bill and on top of that I get SRECs which I sell too. I could make my system not feed into the grid with a simple change to the settings but why would I do that?

[Roark]

What you are talking about is an inverter that generates power to feed local loads only and makes sure that it never feeds the grid. It is much less efficient as power is not generated if the consumption is low.

I own my inverter and entire system out right because I didn't have to finance it too. It isn't cybo, and unlike cybo I can run things when the grid is down even at night, and when the grid is up, I can feed into it and reduce my bill and on top of that I get SRECs which I sell too. I could make my system not feed into the grid with a simple change to the settings but why would I do that?

Sounds pretty good. How much did it cost? And be honest.

The Cybo Inverter shaves my electric bill considerably whenever the sun is shining, but especially when I need to run the central heat blower or air conditioner.

Just as with a PV inverter air conditioner, the Cybo Inverter is successfully shaving 90% of the watts consumed by my window air conditioner, already! It will pay for itself in one season, possibly two including the panels!

When not shaving, I switch over to my Xantrex charge controller and charge the Golf batteries for my emergency back up power.

Not suggesting it. You just are wrong. You are just stating a lot of irrelevant and BS theories, and you ARE just advertising for Cybo with BS marketing speak.

Why the need to tell someone what they are saying, what they are not saying, that what they are saying is wrong, etc.

Okay, you're right. Have it your way. All things connected to the grid are "grid tied". There, I said it. Happy now? Of course not. That is clearly not possible. : (

Actually in S California, that is exactly what the power company has. A list of acceptable equipment. Why split every single hair and have this need to dominate the conversation.

If PPAs are way down, well we just got an offer in the mail for one yesterday, so go figure.

I have spent much less than two thousand and I am already shaving nearly my entire 500+ watt window air conditioner consumption down to 80 watts and the Cybo Inverter is at half bore with 2 of the 4 channels filled since I only have a couple panels.

The saturation of power in S. California is being discussed in newspapers and magazines. I don't just make this up. Facts ARE stubborn things. And I state things accurately to the best of my knowledge and want to share with my fellow solar enthusiasts! No need for a hiss contest.

It's well known in the industry that: The two most popular solar inverter providers are battling it out. Solaredge is one of them. One of the two uses micro inverters, in addition to an expensive central inverter. This is just a fact. Just because I don't recall the name of the 2nd most popular solar inverter provider, does not mean it can be suggested that I don't know what I'm talking about.

PNE and SDGE for example have a short list of acceptable grid tied equipment that is allowed for net metering. That's on their website. Now if I don't word this exactly 100% accurately because I am a newbie, there is no need to attack me. Instead a calm response suggesting otherwise is all that is needed and would be more professional. Honestly, this is like high school childishness.

Right they are tied to the grid in that they consume power from the grid just like EVERY OTHER air conditioner....

By this definition, EVERYTHING plugged into the grid (a record player from the 70's for that matter) is "grid tied". I think the definition has become very loose. And yet I'm the one who doesn't have his facts straight? There is just too much splitting of hairs with semantics here.

a grid tie PV system will make every effort to reduce the amount of power consumed from the grid as well.
It is not like your CD play as the air conditioner does NOT have the option of being powered by battery.

Gibberish! ; - )

You seem to make every argument possible both logical sides and a few illogical sides as well.

It is grid tied and set to not feed in. Just like you can do with Fronius, SMA, Enphase, SolarEdge and many other grid tie inverters.

The bad side of it is that you are losing out on power when your solar is producing more than you are consuming with no place to put the extra power (sink loads full etc), it would stop producing. With your small system this is going to be few times but with a larger system, much more.

Not suggesting it. You just are wrong. You are just stating a lot of irrelevant and BS theories, and you ARE just advertising for Cybo with BS marketing speak.

Broken record on the attack mode. Attack attack, attack, defend, defend, defend. Rinse and repeat.

Why not take some of the supposed expertise and actually share it with others, instead of just going around suggesting that I am simply wrong. I don't know you so I am not an enemy. Cybo Energy is not your enemy. Is it? Maybe it is!

Such defensiveness!

And as if Fronius, SMA, Enphase or Solaredge need to be defended. These are the brands I felt were too expensive for the average bloke, by the way. Certainly too expensive for me. Outback as well.

Why feel the need to analyze a persons character, or always have such a need to be "right"?

I was never talking about having a BIG system or replacing the grid.

The Cybo Inverter is UL listed. We've been over that a dozen times before. Again, what is up with this attack attack attack, defend defend defend. Rinse and repeat.

Huge gamble? As if cell phones from major brands haven't caught fire before. As if UL has a completely clean record, itself. I don't wish to digress or distract, as that's not my strategy. At least I'm not always trying to make this into some sort of argument, and then Win. ; - )

Forums are supposed to be for the free exchange of information, which may not always be 100% accurate, but the exchange is made in good faith by good men or women who feel good will toward their fellow human beings.

I wonder if I'm supposed to apologize for upsetting someone so much for being excited about a small solar solution that is working well for me.

[ButchDeal]

Sounds pretty good. How much did it cost? And be honest.

My system is pretty heavily documented here and is considerably more capable than yours.

The Cybo Inverter shaves my electric bill considerably whenever the sun is shining, but especially when I need to run the central heat blower or air conditioner.

Exactly what I stated. "especially when sun is shinning and you are using the HVAC" and not very much when you are not using it.
meaning you are losing efficiency by NOT feeding in with a net metering system...

Just as with a PV inverter air conditioner, the Cybo Inverter is successfully shaving 90% of the watts consumed by my window air conditioner, already! It will pay for itself in one season, possibly two including the panels!

You don't seem to have much of a handle on it. However since it is so inefficient it would pay for itself MORE quickly if you bothered to get a net metering set up.

When not shaving, I switch over to my Xantrex charge controller and charge the Golf batteries for my emergency back up power.

a very manual and even then much less efficient occasional charging system...

Why the need to tell someone what they are saying, what they are not saying, that what they are saying is wrong, etc.

You are making wild claims here based on uninformed guesses on your part that make no since.

Okay, you're right. Have it your way. All things connected to the grid are "grid tied". There, I said it. Happy now? Of course not. That is clearly not possible. : (

Look. if it is connected to the grid it is grid tied. That is sort of the definition of grid tied. I understand that in your land of make believe you think there is some way to not be grid tied and not be off grid, and you likely believe there is a way to be sort of pregnant.

BTW even Cybo has On grid models and Off grid models. They can mix them in a single install for a bimodal system, so I am not sure why you are arguing that cybo isn't on and isn't off grid at the same time.

Actually in S California, that is exactly what the power company has. A list of acceptable equipment. Why split every single hair and have this need to dominate the conversation.

No they don't. We have done a lot of installs in Southern and Northern California as well as almost every other state. Power companies do not dictate the inverter requirements, the AHJ does which is a state or local agency responsible for permits and inspections and code enforcement. There are lists of equipment available to get some incentives mostly in a few states that HAD a made in the state incentive but california wasn't one of those states.

Here is the main list organization (goSolarCA) and note that Cybo is not on either list likely as they do not meet NEC2017 (or just didn't apply) https://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov.../inverters.php

If PPAs are way down, well we just got an offer in the mail for one yesterday, so go figure.

I didn't say non-existant. I said way down. Mostly because people are not getting them and some big companies like Tesla have decided to emphasis them much less and phase them out.

I have spent much less than two thousand and I am already shaving nearly my entire 500+ watt window air conditioner consumption down to 80 watts and the Cybo Inverter is at half bore with 2 of the 4 channels filled since I only have a couple panels.

you are shaving it down a MAX of you mean, and a minimum shaving of zero watts. So some of the time you have some partial savings and the rest of the time you have zero savings. All for a wild expense of $2k I spent $12k, and it cut my whole house bill by 1/4 annually, I get SREC sales, and I received a $3,600 tax credit. On top of that we have power during the many power outages and even water (well pumps take power too). My ROU is longer than yours not because I spent more but rather because our electricity is much cheaper than southern California.

The saturation of power in S. California is being discussed in newspapers and magazines. I don't just make this up. Facts ARE stubborn things. And I state things accurately to the best of my knowledge and want to share with my fellow solar enthusiasts!.

You didn't make it up but you don't understand it either. The S california grid is still a long way from solar saturation, they are talking about it getting closer and CA is doing a lot to plan and manage it. You are sharing things and then pontificating on them with your own twist which is uninformed.

It's well known in the industry that: The two most popular solar inverter providers are battling it out. Solaredge is one of them. One of the two uses micro inverters, in addition to an expensive central inverter. This is just a fact. Just because I don't recall the name of the 2nd most popular solar inverter provider, does not mean it can be suggested that I don't know what I'm talking about.

This has nothing to do with our statement. You stated that you would by an expensive central inverter AND micro inverters when you tried to compare costs. This is not fact and completely wrong regardless of the names of the companies. All micros do not work with central inverters and all central inverters do not work with micros, so it is one or the other. Your cost comparison is just wrong. It can both be suggested AND claimed that you have no idea what you are talking about, with your own words as evidence.

Also Enphase (the micro company you were trying to remember) is not the second most common inverter company. SolarEdge is the first though and their inverters are some of the cheapest in the industry $/w. It can both be suggested AND claimed that you have no idea what you are talking about, with your own words as evidence.

PNE and SDGE for example have a short list of acceptable grid tied equipment that is allowed for net metering. That's on their website. Now if I don't word this exactly 100% accurately because I am a newbie, there is no need to attack me. Instead a calm response suggesting otherwise is all that is needed and would be more professional. Honestly, this is like high school childishness.

They link to the CA list of acceptable grid tie inverters

By this definition, EVERYTHING plugged into the grid (a record player from the 70's for that matter) is "grid tied". I think the definition has become very loose. And yet I'm the one who doesn't have his facts straight? There is just too much splitting of hairs with semantics here.

You seem to be the one tried to make up some new classification here in an established industry when you proclaim yourself to be the "newbie"

Gibberish! ; - )

What was it you didn't understand there? how a grid tie by Ohms law of thermo dynamics pushes power to the closes loads which means that grid tie inverters make every effort to reduce consumption from the grid.

Broken record on the attack mode. Attack attack, attack, defend, defend, defend. Rinse and repeat.

just trying to educate you. clearly not working though

Why not take some of the supposed expertise and actually share it with others, instead of just going around suggesting that I am simply wrong. I don't know you so I am not an enemy. Cybo Energy is not your enemy. Is it? Maybe it is!

Again I am not suggesting you are wrong. I am stating that you are wrong. because and read slowly here, you are wrong.

Cybo is just another manufacturer. You are the one trying to spread miss information.

Such defensiveness!

again you are defending your miss guided statements.

And as if Fronius, SMA, Enphase or Solaredge need to be defended. These are the brands I felt were too expensive for the average bloke, by the way. Certainly too expensive for me. Outback as well.

really enphase is too expensive for you??? you could pick up two of them new for $100 each and do what you are currently doing.

Why feel the need to analyze a persons character, or always have such a need to be "right"?

I can see how others must seem this way to you; when you are wrong as much as you are,

I was never talking about having a BIG system or replacing the grid.

?? You were going on an on about the grid, DC vs AC, small systems have better ROI, etc etc.

The Cybo Inverter is UL listed. We've been over that a dozen times before

You stated that it was UL listed, though what was asked was if it fully meets NEC 2017 codes.
Cybo seems nice for off grid options but it would still require permits to install PV on a home even when off grid, and the installation would have to meet all the requirements for disconnection, fire code setbacks, labeling, etc.

Huge gamble? As if cell phones from major brands haven't caught fire before. As if UL has a completely clean record, itself. I don't wish to digress or distract, as that's not my strategy. At least I'm not always trying to make this into some sort of argument, and then Win. ; - )

You constantly digress (just note your rants on AC vs DC, grid issues, grid connection arguments, ...)
You distract with constant unrelated subjects, salt with random statements and details, Take your Adderall and come back to try again.

Forums are supposed to be for the free exchange of information, which may not always be 100% accurate,

One should expect to be corrected on a forum if one expunges miss information. Especially a technical forum.

but the exchange is made in good faith by good men or women who feel good will toward their fellow human beings.

I don't know what forums you are talking about here though.

[Mike90250]

Gibberish! ; -


Broken record on the attack mode. Attack attack, attack, defend, defend, defend. Rinse and repeat.


Forums are supposed to be for the free exchange of information, which may not always be 100% accurate, but the exchange is made in good faith by good men or women who feel good will toward their fellow human beings.
.

So, here's the issue as I see it Roark

You are posting gibberish You are mixing terms, you appear to not understand well, how things work and really do look like a shill for cyboinverter.

Several people in good faith, have tried to understand what you are trying to say, and your explanations are nonsensical ie "AC batteries" & "war of the currents" DC is now justified because there are some newer special cases

I caution you to rein yourself in and have a bit of graciousness with the professionals you interact with. We want to educate and save folks money, not have them confused with nonsense, greenwashing and bad terminology.

[motorcyclemikie]

Such defensiveness!

Forums are supposed to be for the free exchange of information, which may not always be 100% accurate, but the exchange is made in good faith by good men or women who feel good will toward their fellow human beings.

I'll second that statement

[Roark]

So, here's the issue as I see it Roark

You are posting gibberish You are mixing terms, you appear to not understand well, how things work and really do look like a shill for cyboinverter.

Several people in good faith, have tried to understand what you are trying to say, and your explanations are nonsensical ie "AC batteries" & "war of the currents" DC is now justified because there are some newer special cases

I caution you to rein yourself in and have a bit of graciousness with the professionals you interact with. We want to educate and save folks money, not have them confused with nonsense, greenwashing and bad terminology.

Hey Mike,

Respectfully!

I think if you care enough to look back, you will see that I rarely if ever was antagonistic all throughout this thread.

I can see how I may look like a shill for Cybo Inverter, however I have addressed this and I will say again that I am not. I am merely enthusiastic about it.

I can hardly believe that I am the one being told to have a bit of graciousness. I may have been uninformed at times, but have been gracious the whole time. Please go back and assess, if you must.

I have had no problem with anyone on here, except maybe this one individual who has made such a point of saying I'm wrong about so much of what I have said. As you know, there's nothing wrong with showing newbies where they may want to rethink things. But this has felt like a personal attack of sorts since he chimed in, and he hasn't stopped since.

I suppose I will cease this discussion, someone must, right? If there is any doubt, however, I do ask that you look over this discussion and see how it progresses.

I have always been respectful, if sometimes misinformed or uninformed.

Is it so wrong for someone to discuss the possibility of something that isn't off-grid or grid-tied in the conventional sense? (I tried to fold pv inverter air conditioners into the conversation, for example, so the Cybo Inverter would not be all that I was enthusiastic about.)

I wish you and your forum all the best. I simply was almost discouraged from purchasing a Cybo Inverter for a while by this very thread (which went cold 5 years ago). When I followed through, I just wanted to report one person's (my) success with it.

It is as if I have committed some sort of crime. Like free speech is not allowed or something. If you are certain it is me, there's not much I can say, yet I Beg you to take another look at how this thread unfolded.

Best Regards!

[Roark]

really enphase is too expensive for you??? you could pick up two of them new for $100 each and do what you are currently doing.

Dude, you've been holding out on me this whole time! lol

Why you didn't just say so in the beginning of this thread. $100 for two inverters and panels is all I would need to be grid tied. If only I had known. So perhaps I was wrong to be enthusiastic about the Cybo Inverter.

Seriously? I'm going to let it go. I am a newbie. Surely that much rings true, for you have shown me how wrong I am with each passing post.

It is unfortunate when a discussion ends up this way, instead of the free exchange of ideas, and friendly advice coming experts in the industry who remain professional.

If no one else steps forward with a positive experience with a Cybo Inverter, I suppose that will feel good.

[ButchDeal]

It is unfortunate when a discussion ends up this way, instead of the free exchange of ideas, and friendly advice coming experts in the industry who remain professional.

I would suggest that you look into some communication classes. Your tendency to toss in random statements about unrelated details as if they were established fact has a tendency to make you come across like a flat Earther with preconceived notions.
This is a forum for many solar newbies as you put it that like to search through old posts.
Your statements would tend to confuse at the least and worst push unknowing readers down an ill conceived rabbit hole that could cost them dearly.

Good luck

[Roark]

I believe you are just saving face, knowing you have driven another dude off. I was engaging in open dialog questioning a few things like maintaining ac throughout the home, when so many of our modern gadgets run on dc. This is what newbies do.

At this point I feel terrible how this went, yet I know in my heart that I am not a shill, and was only celebrating the Solar inverter air conditioner and Cybo Inverter. My hunch is you may be fine with it, and will write it off as my problem entirely, just as you did with anything I brought up in the solar world. I am surprised when I encounter people who feel no remorse for their actions, such as bullying others.

To make yourself feel better, you are now telling me what to do with my life, telling me to enroll in classes and clean up my act essentially. I can only say to you, what I asked of Mike the moderator. If you are so convinced that the issue lays with me, I beg you to go over this thread, and in your case ready carefully, and if you are honest with yourself, I believe you will see that you have been a bully.

If 2 micro inverters for $100 is really all that is needed, I would think that would have been one of your first examples as to why I might consider an alternative to the Cybo Inverter or the Solar Inverter Air conditioners I was enthusiastic about. But I guess there just isn't room for anyone to consider these two options, even if on a fixed income as a senior, for example.

Sadly, anyone who might otherwise be interested in these alternatives I have touched on might not get a chance to since so much was said against same. Some individuals on a limited budget might only need 3 panels and a Solar inverter air conditioner for about $1,800. In my case, I went with the Cybo Inverter because it was a little more affordable still, as I already have some air conditioners. Unfortunately, they are ac based. In the future, I look forward to getting a solar inverter air conditioner! : - )

[ButchDeal]

If 2 micro inverters for $100 is really all that is needed, I would think that would have been one of your first examples as to why I might consider an alternative to the Cybo Inverter or the Solar Inverter Air conditioners I was enthusiastic about. But I guess there just isn't room for anyone to consider these two options, even if on a fixed income as a senior, for example.

I wasn't trying to convince you against the Cybo, I was trying to put facts correct your random statements that would confuse any newbie that might read them, since you stated them as if you were knowledgable about the systems. People not knowing much about the systems would take your "alternative" (wrong) facts at your word .

To connect two PV modules to the grid all you need is two micro inverters or one in the case of other vendors with dual connections like APSystems etc.

https://webosolar.com/store/en/microinverters-optimizers/2315-apsystems-yc600y-600w-dual-microinverter.html?gmc_currency=2&gclid=CjwKCAiAqt7jBRAcEiwAof2uK65sjBaLsogQgSaOmBDfFDgus93m7-pN7gOlW50H-1AJ7bGM9oE0nxoCKeMQAvD_BwE

Fixed income has little to do with it as well if there is savings then it is better on a fixed income.

Sadly, anyone who might otherwise be interested in these alternatives I have touched on might not get a chance to since so much was said against same. Some individuals on a limited budget might only need 3 panels and a Solar inverter air conditioner for about $1,800.

OK lets analize this a bit.

What is the alternative you speak of? It sounds like just a partial offset though you say "might only need". If I am reading you correctly what you mean is "might only be able to afford".
As there is actually no need for anything.
Limited budget implies limited ability to pay but, the want is for reduced bill.
Air conditioner is only part of the load so only offsetting a little bit.
Doing it with a grid assist is only offsetting part of the load further.

Let me explain this part. so say you have an air conditioner.
With out feeding into the grid you can only offset the times that it runs during sun hours AND since not feeding in during sun hours when Air conditioning is not called for the solar produced nothing.
Put the same amount of solar on the grid and it can offset other loads when the air conditioner is not on as well as possibly air conditioner load at night via credits.

So your alternative is a plugin assist unit that does not feed in (there are others that do this too) but you can also use conventional inverters to not feed into the grid
or get a net metering agreement and use conventional inverters.

So three choices, heck lets toss in the fourth option too of bimodal and fifth of off grid.

1) Off grid is least efficient and most costly
2) bimodal less costly but still more than other options but has backup (might not be needed) and load shift options, and in CA and MD another incentive (possibly some brands have maxed)
3) grid tie + net metering most efficient
4) grid tie no feed in less efficient
5) off grid - grid assist (cybo option) second from least efficient off grid being the least.

So for this "anyone" you speak of looking for a reduced bill could choose a small spend on a solar install for the most offset and fastest ROI would choose
a net metering option with a conventional grid tie inverter system.

from your other posts it sounds like yours is a DIY in which case a net metering with conventional grid tie inverter is still the best choice.

Now if the someone is in a lease home so they can't do a full install with net metering, they could do either grid tie no feed in or cybo, with grid tie no feed in being the cheapest and with micro inverters can do a small install


But lets get back to your Example. you have a single cybo grid assist type inverter. I assume this is 120V plug in with one air conditioner plugged into it, and two PV modules. In Southern California. How much has this reduced your bill? do you know how much AC power was generated by the unit? I assume you "bank" cold air during the day but still the air conditioner is going to cycle.

[John_Dumke]

Roark,

What I think some people don't understand is the dynamics of an established forum like this. Think of the forum as a room of people at a cocktail party specifically put together around a particular interest or hobby. Some people have been coming to this cocktail party for years. They meet everyday, and know the regulars. They have reputations as good citizens of this group. The members of this party know different members backgrounds and what they have contributed to past discussions. Many new members have been helped immensely by many of the regulars. If a new member can learn and then give back what has been learned then that is the ideal. The regular members have donated countless hours of their time and money by creating a supportive environment where new people can learn, be supported and contribute.

Then at one of these cocktail parties, some new guy busts in the door excited to share something they have just learned. Without introducing himself or getting to know the community, he makes statements that lead the existing members in the community to wonder if this guy knows what he is talking about. Makes statements that sound like a snake oil sales pitch. The regulars look at this guy and think. "Well even if he has a point, his method of delivery could use some polish, and his communication style is all over the place". This is the best outcome. At worst, he is suspected of wasting peoples time and misleading people with some BS sales pitch.

What forums don't need is more spam. It is a lot of work to maintain the integrity of forums because they are bombarded with just this type of sale pitch / hype. So any forum is sensitive to this form of potential abuse.

So my question to you..... If this were a group of real people, because they are, and you were meeting them face to face for the first time, would you have behaved differently with your newfound enthusiasm for this product?

[J.P.M.]

Roark,

What I think some people don't understand is the dynamics of an established forum like this. Think of the forum as a room of people at a cocktail party specifically put together around a particular interest or hobby. Some people have been coming to this cocktail party for years. They meet everyday, and know the regulars. They have reputations as good citizens of this group. The members of this party know different members backgrounds what they have contributed to past discussions. Many new members have been helped immensely by many of the regulars. If a new member can learn and then give back what I has been learned then that is ideal. The regular members have donated countless hours of their time and money by creating a supportive environment where new people can learn, be supported and contribute.

Then at one of these cocktail parties, some new guy busts in the door excited to share something they have just learned. Without introducing himself or getting to know the community, makes statements that lead the existing members in the community to wonder if this guy knows what he is talking about. Makes statements that sound like a snake oil sales pitch. The regulars look at this guy and first off think. "Well even if he has a point, his method of delivery could use some polish, and his communication style is all over the place". And that is the best outcome. At worst, he is suspect of wasting peoples time and misleading people with some BS sales pitch.

And what forums don't need is more spam. It is a lot of work to maintain the integrity of forums because they are bombarded with just this type of sale pitch / hype. So any forum is sensitive to this form of potential abuse.

So my question to you. If this were a group of real people, because they are, and you were meeting them for the first time, would you have behaved differently with your newfound enthusiasm for this product?

IMO, a good allegory. I Wish I could express such/similar opinions as well.

Admin/Mods: What would you think of making this post the first of a stickie as suggested reading for newbies/anyone ?