CyboInverter?

[Ampster]

These are ac batteries, correct? Which is a fancy way of saying that they come with an inverter, right?

It's ironic how much effort is made to still provide so much ac power to houses. From what I understand, ac is desirable when transferred over power lines at extremely high voltages, thus lending itself to the grid. (days of old?)

With so many advances in solar pv, batteries and electronics, it makes less sense to continue providing so much ac power to the home, only to (have it) end up converted to dc for so many of the gadgets in our houses these days.

The way to describe them is AC coupled. Yes, that means DC batteries and a specialized AC inverter that can interact with a grid tie inverter to modulate the power from the Solar Panels.
AC is still the most efficient way to distribute power in the home. Westinghouse and Tesla beat out Edison on that one over a hundred years ago. DC switching at high Amps is far more expensive than the small cost of wall warts that provide power to all those devices you are talking about. I'm no expert but that is my 2 cents worth.

[Roark]

Were is anything talking about Rapid Shutdown

I was simply reporting that I had an actual Cybo Inverter in my hands and was loving the immediate results, especially for the rather small investment, relatively speaking. I am not lecturing. Nor am I using big words that I and others don't understand.

With a basic understanding of electronics, I knew what "ac assist" had to mean. Partly because that is exactly what some solar inverter air conditioners have. Although dc powered, they pull from the grid, but only a minimal amount! To me, that is ideal. Powered by the sun completely when possible, using as little power from the grid as possible. No strings attached. Sovereignty over my panels, total ownership up front. No big installation fees. No strange contracts with 3rd party companies wanting to charge me for every kwH, much the same as the power company would.

I guess I'll have to take your word for it regarding kwh for kwh from / to the power company. Still, knowing that they are in the business for a P=profit, and no longer a public utility, I suspect they need to turn a pretty hefty profit for their share holders. This translates to union workers, padding of expenses, overkill of equipment, high pressure sales, and on and on. I wanted something different. I didn't want to be locked into a contract with the power company, and possibly another one with a line of credit, for equipment that may show ROI down the road, but will require financing or a lease.

It is fine if there are professionals who prefer working with the power company and are used to working with brands such as SolarEdge or Outback and getting paid a lot for the installations, which means they have to charge a lot, too. The fact still remains, some of us are just wanting to shave a bit off our utility bill, and are not interested in an expensive, grid-tied, net metering solution at this time.

Off grid may make sense for remote cabins, possibly even RVs when not plugged in.

Grid-tied is great for some who are willing to finance and / or enter into lease contracts with 3rd party providers, power companies, and so on.

If the grid-tied solutions effectively upload power to the grid by raising the voltage by a tenth of a volt or two, there should be effective alternatives. And there are, such as providing power from the panels directly when possible, supplementing when necessary from the grid. This is the case with solar powered, inverter air conditioners! And the same is true for the Cybo Inverter!

[Roark]

The way to describe them is AC coupled. Yes, that means DC batteries and a specialized AC inverter that can interact with a grid tie inverter to modulate the power from the Solar Panels.
AC is still the most efficient way to distribute power in the home. Westinghouse and Tesla beat out Edison on that one over a hundred years ago. DC switching at high Amps is far more expensive than the small cost of wall warts that provide power to all those devices you are talking about. I'm no expert but that is my 2 cents worth.

I believe ac was the choice for transferring over the grid at thousands of volts. In the home, a great number of items are proving to be dc powered. This includes flat screen tvs, computers, radios, anything electronic. Of course cell phones, tablets, anything USB. And LED lights, which is quickly replacing anything resembling incandescent.

I encourage you to search for keywords: future of electricity belongs to dc

It is sort of silly when one realizes how solar energy originates as direct current but is so often converted to AC, either for the grid, or coming from a battery (dc), then used to power so many things in our home, but often first must be converted back to dc once again, before it is used.

The exception of course is the rather large electric motors such as may still be used by an air conditioner that doesn't happen to be of the more modern inverter (dc) type.

[ButchDeal]

I guess I'll have to take your word for it regarding kwh for kwh from / to the power company.

oh just look it up. Net metering is pretty well described everyplace.

Still, knowing that they are in the business for a P=profit, and no longer a public utility, I suspect they need to turn a pretty hefty profit for their share holders. This translates to union workers, padding of expenses, overkill of equipment, high pressure sales, and on and on. I wanted something different. I didn't want to be locked into a contract with the power company, and possibly another one with a line of credit, for equipment that may show ROI down the road, but will require financing or a lease.

That is nice and all but if you are feeding in then you need a contract...

some of us are just wanting to shave a bit off our utility bill, and are not interested in an expensive, grid-tied, net metering solution at this time.

They still need a permit and permission to connect. Net metering if available is still the most efficient and fastest way to get return.

Off grid may make sense for remote cabins, possibly even RVs when not plugged in.

Grid-tied is great for some who are willing to finance and / or enter into lease contracts with 3rd party providers, power companies, and so on.

You say a lot of stuff but make little since. you are either off grid or grid tied. Both can be done inexpensively

If the grid-tied solutions effectively upload power to the grid by raising the voltage by a tenth of a volt or two, there should be effective alternatives. And there are, such as providing power from the panels directly when possible, supplementing when necessary from the grid. This is the case with solar powered, inverter air conditioners! And the same is true for the Cybo Inverter!

Again you say things but make no since. Grid tie, net metering does provide power locally when possible and supplement from the grid when necessary...

You can also do it with out grid feed in and is commonly done in HI where net metering is not available. In areas where net metering is available doing anything ELSE other than net metering is LESS efficient and loses power since net metering is 100% efficient, nothing else can match it!

[ButchDeal]

I believe ac was the choice for transferring over the grid at thousands of volts. In the home, a great number of items are proving to be dc powered. This includes flat screen tvs, computers, radios, anything electronic. Of course cell phones, tablets, anything USB. And LED lights, which is quickly replacing anything resembling incandescent.

I encourage you to search for keywords: future of electricity belongs to dc

It is sort of silly when one realizes how solar energy originates as direct current but is so often converted to AC, either for the grid, or coming from a battery (dc), then used to power so many things in our home, but often first must be converted back to dc once again, before it is used.

The exception of course is the rather large electric motors such as may still be used by an air conditioner that doesn't happen to be of the more modern inverter (dc) type.

Why are you talking about AC vs DC. Cybo seems to have inverters just like other systems.

AC is simpler to change voltage and is easier to disconnect (AC switches are much simpler than DC switches).
Yes devices often have internal DC components but at lower voltage, distributing DC at low voltage (or AC at low voltage) is just not practical.

[bcroe]

I encourage you to search for keywords: future of electricity belongs to dc

It is sort of silly when one realizes how solar energy originates as direct current but is so often converted to AC,
either for the grid, or coming from a battery (dc), then used to power so many things in our home, but often first
must be converted back to dc once again, before it is used.

So another future guestimator, telling us the work of uncounted engineers over a century and a half is all wrong.
Yes someone with no practical ability here is the silly one. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

So another future guestimator, telling us the work of uncounted engineers over a century and a half is all wrong.
Yes someone with no practical ability here is the silly one. Bruce Roe

Yea. I thought Edison and Westinghouse already battled this out. Edison killed an elephant in the process and Westinghouse (and with Tesla's genius) gave us the grid as we know it.

[motorcyclemikie]

The 'War of Currents" answers that debate! Google it.

[J.P.M.]

The 'War of Currents" answers that debate! Google it.

Been there. Done that. Studied it in 8 grade.

[Roark]

Net metering is not consistently applied across the US. Each state and thus power company has different rules and is in the business to make a huge profit. Which is why they have the 3 tier system. They not only charge you for the amount consumed, but when consumed.

A coworker was talked into solar panels in S. California 8 years ago. He basically rented out his roof, but continues to pay the solar company close to what he would be paying the utility company.

That is exactly why I searched for alternatives. No uploading, no feeding into the grid here. And if the technology improves, I can easily upgrade without a lot out of pocket that I have to pay back first.

you are either off grid or grid tied. Both can be done inexpensively

That's what I used to think! Then I discovered Solar Inverter Air Conditioners and also the Cybo Inverter. These two solutions *are* inexpensive from the beginning. Other approaches are very expensive up front, with the promise of an eventual ROI.

Off-grid requires a large battery bank, charge controller, and really only makes sense when there is no grid.

Grid-tied is great for some, however those who benefit the most are the state (through higher property taxes), the power companies, the banks for providing the much needed financing, and of course the solar companies that sell and install the equipment. A Lot of money is made! Nothing wrong with that, so long as they are honest, but I think the solar industry already has a bit of a reputation, unfortunately. I have had encounters with several companies that use high pressure sales tactics used in talking people into signing up.

[Roark]

Been there. Done that. Studied it in 8 grade.

The war of currents may have been won at the time, however things change. Nothing stays the same forever. The grid is an ancient approach at this point, which is why solar has taken on such a prominent role lately. : - )

[Roark]

So another future guestimator, telling us the work of uncounted engineers over a century and a half is all wrong.
Yes someone with no practical ability here is the silly one. Bruce Roe

No need for labels.. I was making an observation that the grid is the old way of doing things, and that it is sort of ironic or okay silly, how much energy is converted from direct current to alternating, then back to direct current to power so many of our gadgets these days.

Engineers can appreciate the wasted energy with each conversion, so to convert only to convert back again is sort of inefficient. I'm not suggesting an all-or-nothing approach. But maybe rethink things a little, rather than applying the old model in every case.

We've moved from vacuum tubes and CRTs to transistors and flat screens. Solar is joining the grid for now, however I would suggest that the grid is beginning to look like the antiquated approach that it is.

[Mike90250]

For huge, large scale grids, DC is used and then converted back to AC for ease of distribution.

A transformer is a much simpler device to build and maintain than a large DC-DC conversion system.


HVDC systems started development in the late 1930's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current

Fro the forseable future, there are no "magical" developments ready to be used. Only little incremental 1% here and there.

[ButchDeal]

No need for labels.. I was making an observation that the grid is the old way of doing things, and that it is sort of ironic or okay silly, how much energy is converted from direct current to alternating, then back to direct current to power so many of our gadgets these days.

Yes power is often converted from DC to AC and from AC to DC. In fact the grid itself has high voltage DC lines. interconnects between major portions of the grid are in DC.
It is a simplistic or silly approach to take that everything should be DC based on these mundane facts. Both DC and AC have limitations as well as things they are good at. The way things are currently is using AC for its strong suits not least of which being the efficient and easy ability to change voltages.

Engineers can appreciate the wasted energy with each conversion, so to convert only to convert back again is sort of inefficient. I'm not suggesting an all-or-nothing approach. But maybe rethink things a little, rather than applying the old model in every case.

Inverters are very efficient these days and rectification can be done efficiently as well.

We've moved from vacuum tubes and CRTs to transistors and flat screens. Solar is joining the grid for now, however I would suggest that the grid is beginning to look like the antiquated approach that it is.

These details all have NOTHING to do with AC vs DC. The grid is the most efficient way to power things. Further your own comments about how you are using the cybo inverter is USING the grid. you seem to be making more and more erratic statements based on random unrelated details.

[ButchDeal]

The war of currents may have been won at the time, however things change. Nothing stays the same forever. The grid is an ancient approach at this point, which is why solar has taken on such a prominent role lately. : - )

The vast majority of all solar installed is based on and reliant on the grid. Anything NOT using the grid is very inefficient.

Further AC vs DC has nothing to do with solar or the grid: Almost ALL solar installed with more than 1kW has an inverter and the grid uses BOTH AC and DC.