CyboInverter?

[Ampster]

That's interesting because what I heard was that when you enter into a net metering arrangement anywhere in California you agree not to upload to the grid from battery. Despite a glut of power from solar panels during the day, California mandates that all new construction must have solar panels installed.

You are correct. I was referring to self consumption not to uploading to the grid from battery storage.

[Roark]

I don't believe it is within our budget at this time, however: Do you recommend the Tesla battery at this time? I have heard others conclude that batteries still aren't really cost effective for 2019 (of course it would have to depend on the situation, but generally speaking.) Also, do you recommend the LG over Tesla or equally? Thanks!

[Ampster]

I don't believe it is within our budget at this time, however: Do you recommend the Tesla battery at this time? I have heard others conclude that batteries still aren't really cost effective for 2019 (of course it would have to depend on the situation, but generally speaking.) Also, do you recommend the LG over Tesla or equally? Thanks!

If it is not within your budget, I would not recommend either. The incentives in California are why so many are being installed. Tesla has a larger user base and an active forum where users discuss issues and solutions.Even after incentives the payback is slow but most rationalize their purchase because backup is included. That does have some value for some if the grid goes down.

[Roark]

These are ac batteries, correct? Which is a fancy way of saying that they come with an inverter, right?

It's ironic how much effort is made to still provide so much ac power to houses. From what I understand, ac is desirable when transferred over power lines at extremely high voltages, thus lending itself to the grid. (days of old?)

With so many advances in solar pv, batteries and electronics, it makes less sense to continue providing so much ac power to the home, only to (have it) end up converted to dc for so many of the gadgets in our houses these days.

[J.P.M.]

The unintended result in California as the Power Companies continue to shift their time of use rates to later in the day is to incentivize storage.. They are just creating a market for battery storage and the state has incentivized this shift by offering large rebates under the Self Generation Incentive Program. Essentially you can get a Tesla Powerwall or LG Chem system at a net cost of $4000 after incentives.

Large is somewhat a matter of opinion.

But no matter. I'd think that $4K you paid or what any residential customer pays would depend on the vendor and their pricing to some degree as well as what the SGIP incentive may amount to. To say a residential energy storage device can be had for $4K may be correct for your situation, but that's not likely to be what a residential cust. will pay now.

Also, the CA SGIP incentives are a lot less now than when the program began and as the program becomes more subscribed. Looks like SCE is at step 5 and fully subscribed at this time (02/26/2019), meaning those applying for an SGIP incentive now will be put on a wait list. That means an incentive award is not a sure thing for those SCE customers. The other CA IOU POCOs are at step 3 or 4 of the SGIP program for residential energy storage with the SGIP residential incentive at $0.35/Wh storage size (step 3) or $0.30/Wh storage size (step 4).

[Ampster]

Large is somewhat a matter of opinion.
.............

That is all it was intended to be, my opinion, nothing more. I think most posts on forums like these are opinions. Any statements that purport to be factual need to be verified anyway.

[ButchDeal]

Rather than have the entire house try to run on batteries, I figure it makes sense to focus on big items that are costly to run, such as air conditioners. Luckily, when the heat is most unbearable, it happens to coincide with the bright shining sun!

so what are you saying you run large things OFF grid and expect that to be MORE efficient?

So, rather than get paid mere pennies for selling electricity to the utility company during the day, I can now run the air conditioner when it is hot out, without incurring needless expense.

you do understand that you do NOT get paid anything for NET metering. It is just that NET and you OFFSET your bill at 100% efficiency of billing.
I can run my airconditioner when it is hot out as well as when it is cold out via net metering and not incur any expense.

And, instead of taking 8+ years to pay for itself or more, as the typical system does, we're looking at around $2,000 for a few panels and the Cybo Inverter! : - )

Typical net metering grid tie systems are under 7 years ROI and some are less than 3.

Comparing ROI to cost is of course as silly as comparing apples and oranges. you can have a $2k expense and a 50 year ROI or a $2k expense and a 1 year ROI.

And why does the Cybo web site concentrate on 2011 NEC code and AFI? But the web site has a 2019 copy right tag....

[Ampster]

.........
And why does the Cybo web site concentrate on 2011 NEC code and AFI? But the web site has a 2019 copy right tag....

That tells me that there is no rapid shutdown and therefore it would be hard to get a building permit in any jurisdiction that uses NEC 2014 or later.

[Roark]

so what are you saying you run large things OFF grid and expect that to be MORE efficient?

If you look at what you quoted from me, I am only suggesting rather than taking an all-or-nothing approach, apply the energy generated via the solar pv directly to large consumption items such as the air conditioner, real time, as much as possible!

Cybo Inverter's ac Assist feature, fills in the gaps by using minimal power from the grid, only when necessary.

you do understand that you do NOT get paid anything for NET metering. It is just that NET and you OFFSET your bill at 100% efficiency of billing.
I can run my airconditioner when it is hot out as well as when it is cold out via net metering and not incur any expense.

Utility companies offset a customer's bill by issuing credit for power that is loaded onto the grid. Pennies on the dollar? This is usually during the day when there is a surplus, and the credits issued are only for a fraction of what the customer's neighbors are charged (or the same customer) for power from the grid, at night for example.

At such a low rate of credit from the utility company, it's no wonder the pay back time is often so long!

Comparing ROI to cost is of course as silly as comparing apples and oranges. you can have a $2k expense and a 50 year ROI or a $2k expense and a 1 year ROI.
And why does the Cybo web site concentrate on 2011 NEC code and AFI? But the web site has a 2019 copy right tag....

I suppose, however, I think most would agree that a $2,000 expense is likely to involve a much shorter time of payback. A $10,000+ debts incurred, on the other hand, is likely to take many many years to pay for itself, especially if it is tied to the grid! (And therefore at the utility company's whim insofar as credits being issued are concerned!)

It's true, the Cybo Energy website could use a little updating.

I will say, the earlier part of this very discussion discouraged me from purchasing from Cybo Energy initially.

Turns out, I almost missed out. I'm glad I didn't.

[Roark]

That tells me that there is no rapid shutdown and therefore it would be hard to get a building permit in any jurisdiction that uses NEC 2014 or later.

Thing is, the instructions clearly state exactly how the Rapid Shutdown switch is to be installed.

As I say, the naysayers in the beginning of this discussion almost cost me the pleasurable experience that the Cybo Inverter offers.

[J.P.M.]

That is all it was intended to be, my opinion, nothing more. I think most posts on forums like these are opinions. Any statements that purport to be factual need to be verified anyway.

Yea, like you writing Bruce could have gotten a Tesla Power Wall for $4K ?

[Ampster]

Yea, like you writing Bruce could have gotten a Tesla Power Wall for $4K ?

I am not sure which Bruce you are referring to?
Yes the operative phrase was "could have" since Tesla has raised their prices and has no more SGIP allocations so those days are long gone. As I have explained in other threads, I had a reservation for a PowerWall but cancelled it to install a Outback Skybox. My net cost for new components after Federal Tax credits will be about $4.900 because I am not using any SGIP funds.I also don't have to worry about my existing NEM agreement because all I need is a building permit. At least that is what Sonoma County Building and Planning told me. I would suggest that anyone who wants to do this verify with their local building code. Your mileage may vary.
I am not sure discussing whether "large' is large or not is really helping the original poster. Another useless sidetrack.

[ButchDeal]

If you look at what you quoted from me, I am only suggesting rather than taking an all-or-nothing approach, apply the energy generated via the solar pv directly to large consumption items such as the air conditioner, real time, as much as possible!

Cybo Inverter's ac Assist feature, fills in the gaps by using minimal power from the grid, only when necessary.

There are other systems that do this and explain fully how they do it with standard wording. Cybo and you are both talking like snake oil sales men using made up words that sounds close to the real terms but are defined by cybo...

Utility companies offset a customer's bill by issuing credit for power that is loaded onto the grid. Pennies on the dollar? This is usually during the day when there is a surplus, and the credits issued are only for a fraction of what the customer's neighbors are charged (or the same customer) for power from the grid, at night for example..

At such a low rate of credit from the utility company, it's no wonder the pay back time is often so long!

You are lecturing me like you know what you are talking about but it is clear you do not.

NET Metering is exactly that. NET F..ING METERING. you get 100% retail value CREDIT for kWh you send to the utility not pennies on the dollar!

I suppose, however, I think most would agree that a $2,000 expense is likely to involve a much shorter time of payback. A $10,000+ debts incurred, on the other hand, is likely to take many many years to pay for itself, especially if it is tied to the grid! (And therefore at the utility company's whim insofar as credits being issued are concerned!)

You want to explain that math? if you get an ROI of 5 years, it doesn't matter if you spend $2k or $10k, you have the same ROI Bigger investment saves more but takes just as long to pay off.

So you are Off grid? it isn't really clear what you are doing.

[ButchDeal]

Thing is, the instructions clearly state exactly how the Rapid Shutdown switch is to be installed.

Were is anything talking about Rapid Shutdown and NEC 2014 or better NEC 2017 support.

[Mike90250]

These are ac batteries, correct? Which is a fancy way of saying that they come with an inverter, right?........

Batteries are only DC. It could be they are packaged with an inverter, but they are still DC batteries.