Wind Pressure Release Clips/Brackets?

[eric@psmnv]

Good point. I may have jumped the gun. Next time I will try to explain what I feel is an unsafe decision before I make any bad statements. But like you I felt that it was pretty easy to understand that allowing the wind to remove a panel from a structure can be extremely dangerous and not need to provide a detailed reason. I hope you understand my reasoning.

I may not have explained my thoughts well at the beginning. To be clearer, I am not proposing that a panel should be released/removed from a structure. I am wondering if there is a way to rig it so that the wind stresses are relieved somewhat when they get too high. My idea is to design the mount to allow the panel angle to adjust itself under high wind load. The bracket I'm considering would not let go of the panel. It would just spring to a new angle when the pressure reaches a certain threshold. However, I'm not silly enough to think I'm inventing a new idea. I imagine that similar release brackets must already exist for other applications.

[SunEagle]

I may not have explained my thoughts well at the beginning. To be clearer, I am not proposing that a panel should be released/removed from a structure. I am wondering if there is a way to rig it so that the wind stresses are relieved somewhat when they get too high. My idea is to design the mount to allow the panel angle to adjust itself under high wind load. The bracket I'm considering would not let go of the panel. It would just spring to a new angle when the pressure reaches a certain threshold. However, I'm not silly enough to think I'm inventing a new idea. I imagine that similar release brackets must already exist for other applications.

I understand your desire. Unfortunately I do not know of a device that adjusts the panel orientation based on wind pressure or direction. I would think there would need to be some type of PLC or "controller" with excellent inputs that can make a decision and then modulate a multi axis panel orienter. Just remember that there will be both mechanical and electronic maintenance for that system.

[GodfreysGhost]

Neither SunEagle nor J.P.M. seem to have read what Eric actually wrote, you are making up a scenario that he never suggested in the first place (apparently you think he is suggesting releasing THE PANELS in high wind...) and then telling him that it's dangerous. It's utterly ridiculous that we can't even discuss potential designs and possibilities here without being told 'it's dangerous'. These are merely ideas that people are putting forwards for mounting solar panels, what about the risk of electric shock? Should we all stop talking about solar panels because even if your system is installed by a competent electrican, what IF you somehow managed to touch something with a high voltage in your house and got killed? etc.etc. If other people read something on the internet and copy it, without thinking it through, and without reading other people's warnings, whose fault is that? Where on this forum does it say that every single post is written by a certified mechanical or electrical engineer and is therefore safe to be taken as gospel? SunEagle - how can you not have understood Eric's first post, which clearly explained that the panel would have clips which would allow the bottom part of it to SLIDE along a slider - at no point did he suggest anything like what you and others are lambasting him for!

[GodfreysGhost]

The same sort of wind protection devices have been used in wind turbines of all types for decades - if you want to talk about danger, let's talk about large wind turbines on very high towers... Solar panels are a picnic compared to wind turbines.

[SunEagle]

Neither SunEagle nor J.P.M. seem to have read what Eric actually wrote, you are making up a scenario that he never suggested in the first place (apparently you think he is suggesting releasing THE PANELS in high wind...) and then telling him that it's dangerous. It's utterly ridiculous that we can't even discuss potential designs and possibilities here without being told 'it's dangerous'. These are merely ideas that people are putting forwards for mounting solar panels, what about the risk of electric shock? Should we all stop talking about solar panels because even if your system is installed by a competent electrican, what IF you somehow managed to touch something with a high voltage in your house and got killed? etc.etc. If other people read something on the internet and copy it, without thinking it through, and without reading other people's warnings, whose fault is that? Where on this forum does it say that every single post is written by a certified mechanical or electrical engineer and is therefore safe to be taken as gospel? SunEagle - how can you not have understood Eric's first post, which clearly explained that the panel would have clips which would allow the bottom part of it to SLIDE along a slider - at no point did he suggest anything like what you and others are lambasting him for!

His first post suggested the panels would lift up during a high wind event. I do not know of any legal device that would allow a panel to move during a wind event so based on what was written I did not like where the post was going.

You have to remember that most of the members on this forum may believe YouTube videos as being legal and not realize they are trying to install something that is neither safe or per local code. There are way too many people that try to "cheat" the system to save money and they might be putting themselves or others in a dangerous situation so I call out those designs that have no engineering background or review that says they are safe.

If you feel I am being too hard on some of the posters then try to put yourself in a place that if we don't call people out on unsafe conditions and they get hurt who will be libel?

[J.P.M.]

Neither SunEagle nor J.P.M. seem to have read what Eric actually wrote, you are making up a scenario that he never suggested in the first place (apparently you think he is suggesting releasing THE PANELS in high wind...) and then telling him that it's dangerous. It's utterly ridiculous that we can't even discuss potential designs and possibilities here without being told 'it's dangerous'. These are merely ideas that people are putting forwards for mounting solar panels, what about the risk of electric shock? Should we all stop talking about solar panels because even if your system is installed by a competent electrican, what IF you somehow managed to touch something with a high voltage in your house and got killed? etc.etc. If other people read something on the internet and copy it, without thinking it through, and without reading other people's warnings, whose fault is that? Where on this forum does it say that every single post is written by a certified mechanical or electrical engineer and is therefore safe to be taken as gospel? SunEagle - how can you not have understood Eric's first post, which clearly explained that the panel would have clips which would allow the bottom part of it to SLIDE along a slider - at no point did he suggest anything like what you and others are lambasting him for!

To your point about not reading what Eric wrote: I read everything Eric wrote in all his posts to this thread.
As a matter of fact, I have a policy that I read every post I respond to at least 3 times - twice to try to ensure I understand what the writer is trying to convey, and a 3d time after my response but before I pull the trigger on it to try to ensure my post conveyed what I wanted it to convey.
Looks to me like you might not have agreed with what you read of at least some my stuff in this thread and decided I hadn't read Eric's stuff.
Notice my first response to Eric was brief and to the point.
Notice Peakbagger's response to Eric's post was a bit more detailed, but, and certainly without speaking for PeakBagger, what he wrote didn't seem like a ringing endorsement of what Eric had posted to that point in the thread.

I might have initially responded in a way similar to Peakbagger's but I figured I'd wait until Eric got his tit in the ringer a little farther and I'd then have more information to respond to. Eric's response to Peakbagger's post convinced me that things in the misinformation/ignorance dept. had reached a point where something had to be done.

If that sounds (reads) as arrogant, so be it. Right now we're in an area of engineering where I at one time claimed professional competence, so deal with it.

IMO only, Eric's response to Peakbagger's post showed a fundamental ignorance of what/which external forces - in this case wind loadings - can exist, what those forces can do, how they do them, and the reasons why, as well as any serious notion of how to approach safe design. Only after reading Eric's response to Peakbagger's post did I respond to that (Eric's ) post. My post expressed my true opinion. Rest assured I pondered what to write for some time and chose my words carefully when I did.

Also notice at no point in this thread did I make insulting, inflammatory or rude personal remarks to or about Eric or anyone else - only the subject matter and what I consider the uninformed things that Eric wrote - unless you consider expressing an opinion that someone is not qualified to design structures to be insulting. I'm calling out the message, not the messenger.

Look, engineering design is serious business. IMO only, you and Eric know little about it. Screw it up and damage or loss of life can result. This is not playground stuff.
When I was working, I and most every other P.E. I ever worked with, for, or anyone who ever reported to me, took it equally seriously.
When I see things that can perhaps pose a hazard or an unsafe design - such as sloppy, questionable or just plain dangerous (by virtue of being wrong) statements or attitude - and then allowing it to spread to others in a semi-public way such as on this forum to those who are clueless about the subject and the dangers posed by disseminating such incorrect information, I believe I have an obligation to speak up. Sue me.

IMO only, you, Eric and people with what seem to be similar opinions about shooting off your mouths as a birth right about things, regardless (it seems to me) of the difference between what you think you may know about a subject and any actual knowledge about that subject you may have, exhibit rude and inconsiderate behavior. In so doing you convey possibly (do you know ?) dangerous information due to ignorance. Yea, I know, people are dumb - not my problem Right. Well, no. Not right.

To me, that's rude and unacceptable behavior. A little like intentional misinformation. On top of all that, those with that type of behavior often/usually take it as a personal insult when called out for spreading what other (more informed) people consider bad and possibly dangerous information. Get off your egos and act responsibly with some consideration or thought for the effect such actions can easily have on others.

This forum is not a popularity contest. It's a place to exchange ideas and information primarily about solar energy, its applications and to a lesser extent alternate energy and its applications. It's best if the information is as accurate, or at least as minimally wrong as we all can in good faith and due diligence make it.

What would you think if you found out all the stuff I've written to you was done in a cavalier way with little concern for any accuracy ? If I'd taken that attitude done that when I was working and sealed a design and something subsequently went wrong due to my discovered dereliction, I'd be in deep spoor.

Also, to Mike 134: I'm not defending Sun/eagle at all, but IMO, you have a lousy aim. SunEagle was at least partially responding to my suggestion to put a stop to what I saw (and still see) as the ignorant nonsense Eric was writing surrounding particulars about structural design as it relates to external loadings. More IMO, he (SunEagle) is doing his job. You got a beef about something I started, come after me, not the administration.
While I'm at it, do you have or claim any design experience or expertise in structural design methods and procedures for external loadings on structures ? If not I'd suggest you pick your targets and stay within your area(s) of proficiency.
You're an electrician right ? Would you feel any obligation to call me out if I wrote a bunch of stuff about electrical design that you knew, and I mean REALLY knew, based on your education and experience to be ignorant to the point of being dangerous and might result in property damage and /or loss of life ?

Rant mode off.

[eric@psmnv]

Personally, I don't have a problem with being told when my ideas are lame. My wife for the past 40 years has an earned Ph.D. in that discipline, and she is nearly always right. This is a long thread, but it could have been shorter. In my opinion, a great approach would have been something like, "The OP asked a question and posited an idea. Lest anyone think it is a good one, here are some reasons why it is not,” based on engineering, physics, municipal codes, or what have you. That sort of answer takes a bit of time, but it would have educated me, thread lurkers, and others who may come to this discussion in the future. It is easy to curtly declare ex cathedra that an idea is dumb and dangerous, and to disparage the person who raised it for risking the lives of others and not repenting at the first sign of a self-described authority’s rebuke, but it is ultimately not helpful or enlightening.

That said, it is still not clear to me that you understood the original question. Your reactions suggested that you thought I was proposing a system where panels would be released from their mounting and allowed to fly away freely. I agree, that would be dangerous. What I wondered instead is whether it might be possible to rig up a special bracket, maybe with two catches at the bottom of the panel, where the first catch would release under a certain amount of pressure. The bottom of the panel would rotate upward, held by a hinge at the top of the panel and by sliders on the sides, and then the second catch would lock into place at the bottom. (I did not think to mention the second catch, but I did mention the hinge and sliders.) The net result would be a panel still securely held, but at a new angle with less wind drag. To my uneducated mind, this seems feasible--even a good idea. However, since I am neither educated nor experienced in these things, I came to a forum where I knew there were experts in the gallery. While there has been some conjecture about panels flying into structures or vehicles, no one has yet provided any reasons based on science or engineering as to why that would happen.

Carl Sagan once said, “There are naïve questions, tedious questions, ill-phrased questions, questions put after inadequate self-criticism. But every question is a cry to understand the world. There is no such thing as a dumb question.” This thread is at risk of demonstrating to current and future visitors that, in this forum at least, Sagan was wrong.

[J.P.M.]

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That said, it is still not clear to me that you understood the original question. Your reactions suggested that you thought I was proposing a system where panels would be released from their mounting and allowed to fly away freely. I agree, that would be dangerous. What I wondered instead is whether it might be possible to rig up a special bracket, maybe with two catches at the bottom of the panel, where the first catch would release under a certain amount of pressure. The bottom of the panel would rotate upward, held by a hinge at the top of the panel and by sliders on the sides, and then the second catch would lock into place at the bottom. (I did not think to mention the second catch, but I did mention the hinge and sliders.) The net result would be a panel still securely held, but at a new angle with less wind drag. To my uneducated mind, this seems feasible--even a good idea. However, since I am neither educated nor experienced in these things, I came to a forum where I knew there were experts in the gallery. While there has been some conjecture about panels flying into structures or vehicles, no one has yet provided any reasons based on science or engineering as to why that would happen.

[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]

I response to your above paragraph, go back and read the 1st paragraph of my 2d post to this thread, particularly the sentence "What you are considering may be possible but very impractical if done in a sane and safe way."

I could explain why I have the opinion I expressed in that paragraph with respect to the possibility of designing some such type of catchment/partial restraint system. However, and as I stated, to explain would require a lot of time and effort. I was hoping to jog your intellectual curiosity into some type of initiative toward self help. Looks to me like that effort failed.

As simple as I can make it without using an information shovel: Given the complexity of such a system as you seem to describe as well as the added uncertainties introduced by such things as moveable clips, sliders and a whole lot more complication than you seem to know about compared to the simpler and so more reliable fixed ("rigid") system(s) with (maybe) nothing more complicated than what's known in structural analysis as a "pinned" connection or two, it's just more practical from a safety, cost, maintenance, system reliability and KISS principle standpoint, at least for smaller residential systems, to beef things up structurally than to get more complicated.

Now, I have a beef. You seem to come in here with an attitude that looks to me like you feel you're entitled to demand answers to be spoon-fed to you like folks here are your chattel - as in "no one as yet provided any reasons why that would happen". Well, why would anyone be obligated to do that ?
On top of that, you seem to get indignant when I tell you that you lack the technical background necessary to engage in understanding the problems your idea will need to overcome. Put another way, you don't speak the language. Not my problem.

Aside from what's obvious to me, that is, you don't have the training or knowledge to understand why some folks such as myself might consider your idea (and it's no more than that at this point) impractical, you also seem to have made no effort at a little research on your own about PV panel fixations before you show up and expect all your questions go "POOF" and simple answers appear out of the either. Try doing some research on your own and come back her with intelligent, researched questions tat have some meat on them based on what you discovered by your own efforts.

A little humility and a lot less hubristic attitude might make for a more collegial atmosphere. In 14,000+ posts around here, I've answered more questions than I've asked but, similar to my first engineering boss, I prefer to help folks who help themselves first. Besides, being an enabler helps no one so I don't do it.

The last word is yours. I'm out of this thread.

[Mike 134]

The last word is yours. I'm out of this thread.

Thank goodness!!! I find your word salads difficult to read, I'm sure you're trying to make a point but gets lost in all the needless prose.
Eric 's time in literature class was well spent. His is an interesting read.

[Ampster]

Thank goodness!!! I find your word salads difficult to read, I'm sure you're trying to make a point but gets lost in all the needless prose.
Eric 's time in literature class was well spent. His is an interesting read.

Fortunately there are other forums where the dialogue is more respectful. I do occasionally get some useful advice here which is why I visit briefly. User statistics tell the story.

[eric@psmnv]

;

Fortunately there are other forums where the dialogue is more respectful. I do occasionally get some useful advice here which is why I visit briefly. User statistics tell the story.

That is a fair observation, I think. Over 45,000 people have taken time to sign up and become members here, but only 241 active ones are left, with only 5 posts so far today. That means 99.4% of the people who signed up have stopped talking for one reason or another. All the solar vendors I've spoken to are dealing with unprecedented demand, partly due to supply chain problems, but also because there has been a surge in the number of people who sense the need to stop relying on the grid. I would expect that level of interest to reflect in the active membership of the forum and the number of daily posts. Meanwhile, over at DIY Solar Power Forum, there appear to be a few hundred posts today alone. A lot of that is no doubt because Will Prowse's videos are popular, but anyone who has Google can find this one as well. There does also seem to be a different atmosphere over there. More DIY friendly, true to the name. Fortunately, I have a thick skin. I'll ask a stupid question pretty much anywhere.

[GodfreysGhost]

Hi Eric, I have a simpler (possible) solution to your problem - use strong elastic bands, with rubber stoppers to prevent noise and damage. So the frame will have one end of the elastic bands attached to it on each side, and the other ends of the elastic bands will be attached to the bottom of the solar panel. When the wind is strong enough, it will stretch the elastic band and the bottom of the panel will move 'out' of the wind (as they say in wind turbine circles).
I have to say that I too find this forum hard work because of the negative reactions - without explanations - that some of my ideas have received on here. It is incredibly unhelpful to be told 'you're idea isn't going to work and you will have problems if you go ahead with it', without any explanation of WHY. I agree with Ampster, and Eric. I think I'll try another forum and let the tiny number of people patient enough to stay here carry on. I want to be able to discuss ANY ideas about solar panels with people, if they're wrong, great, let me know why, I value your help.
I am grateful for the help that J.P.M. and others have given me on here, but I'm going elsewhere.

[eric@psmnv]

Hi Eric, I have a simpler (possible) solution to your problem - use strong elastic bands, with rubber stoppers to prevent noise and damage. So the frame will have one end of the elastic bands attached to it on each side, and the other ends of the elastic bands will be attached to the bottom of the solar panel. When the wind is strong enough, it will stretch the elastic band and the bottom of the panel will move 'out' of the wind (as they say in wind turbine circles).
I have to say that I too find this forum hard work because of the negative reactions - without explanations - that some of my ideas have received on here. It is incredibly unhelpful to be told 'you're idea isn't going to work and you will have problems if you go ahead with it', without any explanation of WHY. I agree with Ampster, and Eric. I think I'll try another forum and let the tiny number of people patient enough to stay here carry on. I want to be able to discuss ANY ideas about solar panels with people, if they're wrong, great, let me know why, I value your help.
I am grateful for the help that J.P.M. and others have given me on here, but I'm going elsewhere.

Oh goodness, I'm pretty sure your post just sent JPM into cardiac arrest, so you should hang around at least long enough to attend the funeral and pay your respects. (Just kidding, JPM! Live long and prosper!) I am not an engineer or a physicist, and I've never played one on TV, which puts me in the camp of people who either accomplish things because they are too stupid to know its impossible, or die young trying. I'm too old to die young, so... I considered your approach, but it seems to me that the bands would be constantly stretching and releasing, even if not visibly, and would be under full UV light. I don't know how you would keep them from wearing out fast. Also, given that wind pressure can vary a lot, often coming close to, or exceeding, the "strong enough" threshold, I worry that the elasticity would allow the panels to bump and thud, messing with the delicate electronics. Offhand, I can't think of a way to overcome those factors, but I'm open to suggestions.