Going from ground mount array system to rooftop array

[Neutronspin]

I am going to have to move my solar array from it's present ground mount to the roof of my home due to HOA restrictions. I was told by one company I need to add Fast Shutdown and Arc Fault protection. Is this true? This adds an increased cost to the move. I am going to install 4 strings of 3 - 300watt panels each to a string to a combiner. What equipment would be needed? I plan on feeding my existing Schneider 60-150 controllers.

[J.P.M.]

Before you assume you must move the array:

1.) Are you in CA ?

2.) Was the ground mount array approved at one time by your HOA ?

Under CA law, if the ground mount array was approved by the HOA and you did nothing to change it, like making it larger or moving it, the HOA cannot enforce what it's telling you to do.

If the array was not approved by the HOA, things get a bit sticky, particularly if ground mounts are not allowed by the HOA. Without prior approval, and if ground mounts are disallowed by the CC & R's, you'll probably need to move it.

Perhaps the tricky part: If you are in CA, the Solar Rights Act says that HOA's cannot forbid arrays. Also, and maybe something for you to consider using, HOA's, while they can force changes to proposed arrays, cannot force changes to designs that make the array more than $1,000 more or impair performance by > 10%.

So, if the ground mount was initially approved, and hasn't been modified, I'd remind the HOA that, first, they cannot forbit solar installations, second, they cannot retroactively rescind approval of a home improvement without cause, and third, they cannot force changes on new installs that cost > $1,000.

My suspicion is that you put in a ground mount without any HOA review/approval and go caught, and now, they are telling you that if you want an array, that's OK, you'll have to move the ground mount to the roof. That about it ??

[Neutronspin]

Before you assume you must move the array:

1.) Are you in CA ?

2.) Was the ground mount array approved at one time by your HOA ?

Under CA law, if the ground mount array was approved by the HOA and you did nothing to change it, like making it larger or moving it, the HOA cannot enforce what it's telling you to do.

If the array was not approved by the HOA, things get a bit sticky, particularly if ground mounts are not allowed by the HOA. Without prior approval, and if ground mounts are disallowed by the CC & R's, you'll probably need to move it.

Perhaps the tricky part: If you are in CA, the Solar Rights Act says that HOA's cannot forbid arrays. Also, and maybe something for you to consider using, HOA's, while they can force changes to proposed arrays, cannot force changes to designs that make the array more than $1,000 more or impair performance by > 10%.

So, if the ground mount was initially approved, and hasn't been modified, I'd remind the HOA that, first, they cannot forbit solar installations, second, they cannot retroactively rescind approval of a home improvement without cause, and third, they cannot force changes on new installs that cost > $1,000.

My suspicion is that you put in a ground mount without any HOA review/approval and go caught, and now, they are telling you that if you want an array, that's OK, you'll have to move the ground mount to the roof. That about it ??

Thanks for the reply. The answer is NO to both questions. I have complied with their order to remove the array which I did. I submitted a request to roof mount the array and I am pretty sure it will get approved as long as they are flat and not elevated on my roof. Now I am figuring compliance issues with my existing system.

I need some clarification on the NEC disconnect and Arc Fault requirement for roof mounted arrays. I am thinking the Midnite Solar Birdhouse and Disconnecting Combiner should satisfy the quick PV disconnect but the Arc Fault detection and protection is a little confusing. My Schneider PV controllers that were used on the ground mount system do not have Arc Fault protection. Does this mean I need to use controllers with it built in? Or some other method? Any info appreciated. Thank you.

[littleharbor]

Is this a full off grid system? Hybrid? Does the HOA know or realize it isn't a grid tie system? (if it isn't).

[emartin00]

What you are looking for is "Rapid Shutdown". There are a handful of products that you can use, the Midnight combiner being one of them.
What are you using for an inverter? I believe most modern inverters have Arc Fault protection built in.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for the reply. The answer is NO to both questions. I have complied with their order to remove the array which I did. I submitted a request to roof mount the array and I am pretty sure it will get approved as long as they are flat and not elevated on my roof. Now I am figuring compliance issues with my existing system.

I need some clarification on the NEC disconnect and Arc Fault requirement for roof mounted arrays. I am thinking the Midnite Solar Birdhouse and Disconnecting Combiner should satisfy the quick PV disconnect but the Arc Fault detection and protection is a little confusing. My Schneider PV controllers that were used on the ground mount system do not have Arc Fault protection. Does this mean I need to use controllers with it built in? Or some other method? Any info appreciated. Thank you.

Since you will most likely need approval/sign off from them, I'd start by getting get ahold of the AHJ for your area. Lots of opinions here, but building code authority is the only opinion that counts.

[Neutronspin]

What you are looking for is "Rapid Shutdown". There are a handful of products that you can use, the Midnight combiner being one of them.
What are you using for an inverter? I believe most modern inverters have Arc Fault protection built in.

I am using a Schneider SW series inverter. I believe it has arc fault built in. Then I would need something like the Midnite Solar "Birdhouse" and their rapid shutdown combiner mounted on the roof near the array with the Birdhouse mounted near my electric meter?

[Neutronspin]

Is this a full off grid system? Hybrid? Does the HOA know or realize it isn't a grid tie system? (if it isn't).

It is a full off-grid system. The HOA won't approve it since they say the ground mount is a "structure" and they said the rules don't allow it. I believe the real reason is they don't like the appearance of the mount or someone complained. They are down anyways and I will move on with the roof array IF they approve it. I hate the people in my area....very backwards thinking....

[littleharbor]

It is a full off-grid system. The HOA won't approve it since they say the ground mount is a "structure" and they said the rules don't allow it. I believe the real reason is they don't like the appearance of the mount or someone complained. They are down anyways and I will move on with the roof array IF they approve it. I hate the people in my area....very backwards thinking....

What is the reason you have a full off grid system? it sounds like you are located in an area that would have grid power.

[Neutronspin]

What is the reason you have a full off grid system? it sounds like you are located in an area that would have grid power.

Two reasons.....first my utility is not reliable...just lost power several minutes ago and secondly I do not want net metering. The utility will not be paying for any excess power sent to them and my system is not setup to power all my house loads. I have a load center where I can manually select which loads to power from solar. Primarily the kitchen loads...etc. It is a 3.6Kw system with a 15kw battery bank.

[littleharbor]

Two reasons.....first my utility is not reliable...just lost power several minutes ago and secondly I do not want net metering. The utility will not be paying for any excess power sent to them and my system is not setup to power all my house loads. I have a load center where I can manually select which loads to power from solar. Primarily the kitchen loads...etc. It is a 3.6Kw system with a 15kw battery bank.

Your POCO must be pretty bad to warrant the cost of a full offgrid system. Not saying you should run out and change out your system but if you did have a hybrid inverter you could reduce your utility bill and have back up power, as long as you have to be paying for battery replacement anyway.

[J.P.M.]

It is a full off-grid system. The HOA won't approve it since they say the ground mount is a "structure" and they said the rules don't allow it. I believe the real reason is they don't like the appearance of the mount or someone complained. They are down anyways and I will move on with the roof array IF they approve it. I hate the people in my area....very backwards thinking....

NOMB or concern, but do you know the costs, including financial, and in maintenance and time involved, not to mention likely changes in lifestyle that will most likely be required for off grid living ?

More NOMB: What you've described of your situation and how you've handled it so far leads me to think that maybe you have a "ready, shoot, aim" outlook on things and are perhaps a bit short on how to set goals and how best to reach them.

Have you looked and researched in some depth at what you are considering to meet your electrical needs, starting with knowing what your electrical load is and how much of it a PV system will supply, and for what cost ?

For unreliable grid service, get an internal combustion engine generator.

As for hating, that is a very powerful emotion. I'd remove the source of that hate and move to a place with folks more to your liking, and, while your at it one that maybe has better electrical service and not in an HOA.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Neutronspin]

NOMB or concern, but do you know the costs, including financial, and in maintenance and time involved, not to mention likely changes in lifestyle that will most likely be required for off grid living ?

More NOMB: What you've described of your situation and how you've handled it so far leads me to think that maybe you have a "ready, shoot, aim" outlook on things and are perhaps a bit short on how to set goals and how best to reach them.

Have you looked and researched in some depth at what you are considering to meet your electrical needs, starting with knowing what your electrical load is and how much of it a PV system will supply, and for what cost ?

For unreliable grid service, get an internal combustion engine generator.

As for hating, that is a very powerful emotion. I'd remove the source of that hate and move to a place with folks more to your liking, and, while your at it one that maybe has better electrical service and not in an HOA.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. This system was never meant to be a power supply for my entire house. It is meant to perform as a charging source for my EV and as a source for smaller household loads PV permitting. My utility does not do net metering which a hybrid system would require. I do have an ICE generator for emergency power. The "hate" was not meant as a rhetorical statement but my personal opinion of a situation which I have no control over. Thanks again.....

[SunEagle]

Thank you for the thoughtful response. This system was never meant to be a power supply for my entire house. It is meant to perform as a charging source for my EV and as a source for smaller household loads PV permitting. My utility does not do net metering which a hybrid system would require. I do have an ICE generator for emergency power. The "hate" was not meant as a rhetorical statement but my personal opinion of a situation which I have no control over. Thanks again.....

There are hybrid type systems that can be programmed to limit the amount of power going to the grid to zero, therefore no net metering happens. They are more expensive than a standard grid tie system but can provide both backup power as well as utilize solar during the daytime.

[Neutronspin]

I am not going to use this forum again since I am met with some hostility. I don't know but I may have upset some of the solar veterans here. I asked a simple question and I don't appreciate someone telling me I should move as a fix for my simple question.....sorry but I will find information from a more friendly source. Flaming a person is not a solution to a question. I will also tell my acquaintances not to venture here as well.....have a great day.....