Service & Main Panel Upgrade Code Requirement - Unreasonable!!!!

[foo1bar]

But i think it has to be mounted to a permitted building, not some post. That's called a temporary power pole.

I know a LOT of farms where the meter is mounted on a post - usually the post has a light at the top for the yard and is a very permanent fixture.

But I also doubt that PG&E will be happy with a meter pedestal.
And I think the idea is just fugly for a typical suburban home.
I'm hoping that he's just blowing off steam with the idea of doing a pedestal meter.

[Mike90250]

.... I know the meter does not have to be mounted on the residence....

But i think it has to be mounted to a permitted building, not some post. That's called a temporary power pole.

[Zero_Balance]

Have you checked with the POCO if they will accept an RMA ?

https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/documents/918553898/RMA%20Clearance%20Guide%202-24-16.pdf?nid=15591

Funny you listed that, I was told the POCO used to accept collars but they won't any longer.

[Zero_Balance]

I was incorrect on the service upgrade, the trench and boring can be done by a third party. Will have an estimate done by both POCO and the sub for conduit and service upgrade to 200/225.

The transformer is directly across the street.

Installer stated on the current 100 amp we can only go with 16 panels rated at 285 for about a 4.5kW usage.

I agree on metal posts instead of 4x4s. Pour a small slab and mount the meter box on galvanized pipe next to the wall & foundation.

The POCO upper mgrs were very adamant no meter on the wall. My installer was frustrated. The POCO even told him they would shut the power down if they received any indication someone was sleeping in the room if the new meter panel is was not relocated.

Damn dictatorship!

[ButchDeal]

Foo1bar,

My apologies, thank you for your advice.

Yes, the POCO would be doing the service & underground work, not the contractor.

Have you checked with the POCO if they will accept an RMA ?

https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/documents/918553898/RMA%20Clearance%20Guide%202-24-16.pdf?nid=15591

[foo1bar]

Yes, the POCO would be doing the service & underground work, not the contractor.

Do you have any choice in that matter?
Or is PG&E requiring that only they can do the work?
(I would ask PG&E directly, not rely on 2nd hand or 3rd hand information)
And if they say they're the only ones who can do the work, I'd check with the PUC on whether that's true.
Obviously some things like doing the actual connections it's reasonable that they do the work. For digging and installing cable I can't see why they'd have to be exclusive. If they do it for free, sure they can be exclusive - but if they're charging me why shouldn't I be able to have a qualified 3rd party do it?

Another option would be to relocate the existing main panel/meter off the wall to (2) 4x4 posts planted next to its old location. Convert the old main panel to a sub panel and connect the cabling/wiring thru conduit to the new panel which would only be a few inches away but off the bedroom wall. I will contact the county inspector regarding this option, I know the meter does not have to be mounted on the residence.

If it were me, I'd try to avoid that. Mostly for aesthetic reasons.
But if that's the way you go, I would use metal posts, not wood.


Obviously I'd be looking first at trying to keep it in place where it is now.
And I would be considering whether I wanted to upgrade to 200A service anyhow.

[Zero_Balance]

Foo1bar,

My apologies, thank you for your advice.

Yes, the POCO would be doing the service & underground work, not the contractor.

I'm not sure if the fence was submitted.

The closet is small with sliding doors, very easy to close off or remove the doors.

Another option would be to relocate the existing main panel/meter off the wall to (2) 4x4 posts planted next to its old location. Convert the old main panel to a sub panel and connect the cabling/wiring thru conduit to the new panel which would only be a few inches away but off the bedroom wall. I will contact the county inspector regarding this option, I know the meter does not have to be mounted on the residence.

Thanks!

[foo1bar]

The current service is provided via an "underground burial cable" which was a common method during the 90s. It's not a conduit system hence why the underground boring is required to upgrade and extend the service. At least this is what I am being told at this time.

Even if it was using a conduit you'd very likely need to install a new, larger conduit.
Again you haven't answered the question:
Is the POCO going to run the wires (and conduit) for the new service?
And can YOU (well, your contractor) do the conduit and wires?
(Or if they don't generally do conduit, then the underground cable)

The installer listed the room as "bedroom" on the plans already submitted to the POCO. We would have to resubmit and tell them its a home office after I close off the closet.

If it's a sliding door reach-in closet, I'd just remove the doors, closet rod, shelf, patch and paint and set a desk in that spot.

Is the fence on the plans submitted to the POCO?

I am awaiting a visit from the electrician for his inspection. There is also another homeowner in town with the same dilemma. The installer's regional manager stated the "rule" is being enforced recently throughout Southern and now central CA.

You may be better off talking to a local electrician about doing the panel upgrade. Someone who is on good terms with the local poco office and knows what he's doing may be better able to get things done quickly and cheaply.

[Zero_Balance]

The current service is provided via an "underground burial cable" which was a common method during the 90s. It's not a conduit system hence why the underground boring is required to upgrade and extend the service. At least this is what I am being told at this time.

The installer listed the room as "bedroom" on the plans already submitted to the POCO. We would have to resubmit and tell them its a home office after I close off the closet.

Closing off the closet would be alot quicker and cheaper than having to relocate the main panel. I could do this myself.

I am awaiting a visit from the electrician for his inspection. There is also another homeowner in town with the same dilemma. The installer's regional manager stated the "rule" is being enforced recently throughout Southern and now central CA.

[foo1bar]

Yes, the service upgrade would require new longer underground wiring since the new upgraded main panel would have to be re-located further away from the transformer by 15-20 ft.

OK - but that doesn't answer the question I asked.
Is the POCO going to run the wires (and conduit) for the new service?
And can YOU (well, your contractor) do the conduit and wires?
(It *may* be cheaper for you to hire someone to move the dirt, and an electrician to do the conduit and wires)
Electricians usually don't like to shovel dirt, so they often charge more for it than you'd pay hiring someone yourself.

This IS a chance for you to upgrade your service and get a 30% break on it's cost.
If I had a choice between a house with 100A service and one with 200A service, I'd take the 200A service assuming other things were equal.
(I had 125A and I upgraded to 200A - I no longer notice lights dimming when the AC kicks in.)

So I am stuck with a 100 amp solar system which won't offset my usage that much

You mean a system with a 20A breaker. (3.8kW)

A solar system that weak won't be worth it or cost effective?

Depends on how much it costs and how much you use.
If it's $3/W or less, probably still cost effective.
(probably MORE cost effective than something that'd be near 100% kwh replacement)
It's also quite possible you could do 4.5kW or more of DC panels with only 3.8kW inverter and get over 90%+ of the production as if you had an inverter that could handle the full peak.

waste my one time 30% credit allowance?

If you mean the fed credit, it isn't "one time"

Read IRS form 5695 instructions to confirm for yourself.

As Sunnyguy suggested another questionable option would be to close/wall off the closet thus making the bed room into a non bedroom?

I'd start with "Where do you want me to put the meter? I see from your rules it's not supposed to go inside a fence. It's currently on my home office's exterior wall, why can't it stay there?"
(And don't have a bed clearly visible through the window next to the meter)

If I'm reading the code right myself and thousands of others with main panels mounted on bedroom walls are already illegal which is ridiculous!

It is not code.
It's a rule from your POCO.

[Zero_Balance]

Yes, the service upgrade would require new longer underground wiring since the new upgraded main panel would have to be re-located further away from the transformer by 15-20 ft.

Well more bad news from an upper manager of my solar installer after he contacted the POCO today. The POCO was allowing 100 amp main panels on bedroom walls to be upgraded to 125 amp with a 100 amp main breaker installed and no re-location.. Now the POCO is only allowing "like for like" replacement main panels to remain on bedroom walls and no increase in amperage.

So I am stuck with a 100 amp solar system which won't offset my usage that much (). The home has a gas dryer, range and water heater too, no jacuzzi or pool.

A solar system that weak won't be worth it or cost effective?

Here is my production estimate with a 24 panel system:

System Details:
6.84 kW roof top system
24 American made solar panels
with micro inverters
Includes permitting and installation

Your Monthly Usage Numbers: (kWh)
Production / Usage / Remainder:
Jan: 423 / 611 / 188
Feb: 572 / 546 / -26
Mar: 844 /442 /-402
Apr: 991 / 542 /-449
May: 1096 / 657 /-439
Jun: 1084 / 1085 / 1
Jul: 1112 / 1329 / 217
Aug: 1057 /1489 / 432
Sep: 901 / 1247 / 346
Oct: 793 / 873 / 80
Nov: 562 / 624 /62
Dec: 389 / 584 /195
TOTAL 9,825 10,029 204

Downsizing to the following 12 panel system will cut production in half!

System Details:
3.42 kW roof top system
12 American made solar panels
with micro inverters
Includes permitting and installation

The manager stated my neighbors lucked out before the POCO started enforcing this unreasonable code. So they were allowed to upgrade their service while I am not. Instead of 24 panels I can only have 12 panels which will waste my one time 30% credit allowance?

As Sunnyguy suggested another questionable option would be to close/wall off the closet thus making the bed room into a non bedroom? This would be easy to do. If I changed it back later the POCO would probably shut off my service! Or would this be illegal? Thoughts?

If I'm reading the code right myself and thousands of others with main panels mounted on bedroom walls are already illegal which is ridiculous!

[foo1bar]

I was told the POCO requires a $1500 deposit and then will bill you the remainder of the costs after they have completed the service upgrade. Hopefully they can give me and the contractor an accurate and reasonable estimate?

The POCO is going to run the wires for the new service?

When I upgraded my service the POCO *only* did the final connection in their vault at the edge of my property.
And they did that for very little or free (Was one lineman for an hour or so)
Placing conduit and wires was up to me and/or my contractor.

Yes it might give me an out since re-locating the main panel further back would create a hazard to their personnel by the HVAC unit.

Item A.3 under 5.3.2 prohibits a meter location near "equipment in motion" deemed hazardous.

I very much doubt they'll consider a normal AC unit to be "equipment in motion" that the personnel might contact.

But you might want to look at 5.3.2 E

[Zero_Balance]

A 100 amp panel is well outdated. Its getting rare to find anymore and is affecting the value of your home - if that is important to you. Upgrading to a normal 200A panel will add significant value to your home and I always say people should replace their service every 50 years or so whether they need it or not just for safety reasons. it is definitely going to limit your grid-tied solar system to a 3.3kW inverter and at least if you do the upgrade now, you can claim 30% of the costs as a tax credit. Talk to several solar contractors and find someone experienced in your area with service upgrades. A contractor that is on good terms with the building dept. and friendly with the utility will go a long way toward an amicable solution.

Excellent advice, I will seriously consider upgrading the service if its not too outrageous. I was told the POCO requires a $1500 deposit and then will bill you the remainder of the costs after they have completed the service upgrade. Hopefully they can give me and the contractor an accurate and reasonable estimate?

Wow, didn't realize it but that requirement has been around for years. Here is a 2011 ServiceRequirements specification showing that bedroom walls are not allowed due to noise concerns. That mean noisy "adult activities" would cause interference with the electrical? Jk.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdf...rements/05.pdf

Section 5.3.2. Item a.8

Read that document and it might give you another "out" where that bath wall install could conflict with other requirements.

Yes it might give me an out since re-locating the main panel further back would create a hazard to their personnel by the HVAC unit.

Item A.3 under 5.3.2 prohibits a meter location near "equipment in motion" deemed hazardous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.3.2. Prohibited Meter Locations
The following locations are not acceptable for electric meters.
A. Locations deemed hazardous to either personnel or equipment, or
locations found to be unsuitable for entry. These locations include:
1. Inside any residence.
2. Directly over any stairway, ramp, or steps.
3. Any area where personnel may contact either exposed, high-voltage
conductors or equipment in motion.

WP_20161011_005.jpg

Thank you all for the advice and resources!

[cebury]

Nope, its the big POCO. I do have a complaint and am awaiting a response.

Wow, didn't realize it but that requirement has been around for years. Here is a 2011 ServiceRequirements specification showing that bedroom walls are not allowed due to noise concerns. That mean noisy "adult activities" would cause interference with the electrical? Jk.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdf...rements/05.pdf

Section 5.3.2. Item a.8

Read that document and it might give you another "out" where that bath wall install could conflict with other requirements.

[solarix]

A 100 amp panel is well outdated. Its getting rare to find anymore and is affecting the value of your home - if that is important to you. Upgrading to a normal 200A panel will add significant value to your home and I always say people should replace their service every 50 years or so whether they need it or not just for safety reasons. it is definitely going to limit your grid-tied solar system to a 3.3kW inverter and at least if you do the upgrade now, you can claim 30% of the costs as a tax credit. Talk to several solar contractors and find someone experienced in your area with service upgrades. A contractor that is on good terms with the building dept. and friendly with the utility will go a long way toward an amicable solution.