Finally installing PV on my roof in LA: day 1

[DanKegel]

Yeah... wife and neighborhood association (well, HPOZ policy) vetoed any lighter shingles.

[SunEagle]

Your system looks pretty good. Hopefully the reverse tilt mount will work although I would expect better performance if your shingle color was much lighter to reflect the light.

Thanks for keeping us up to date with the install.

[DanKegel]

The bifacials were installed today (pictures as usual at https://goo.gl/photos/s6s1n69k1EBuSejE8)
The back sides are shaded not just by the mounts, but also by the solaredge modules. (The installers clearly haven't quite gotten the memo.)

About the spindly reverse tilt mount: they did get approval from the city for a non-standard install. I'm still waiting for:
- them to send me the reverse mount engineering drawings and analysis they submitted for the plan check
- them to plug the ethernet into the monitoring system, and to grant me access to the panel-level monitoring data
- for a meter
- for inspection, turnon, and actually generating power

I am still discussing the concerns raised here with them about the mount. I was somewhat surprised they went and installed the bifacials given that, but I was away from home at the time, and when my wife called to tell me it was happening, I figured I didn't really have enough of a case to tell them to stop.

Also, judging by http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/m...0flowchart.pdf, I'm at least 5-6 weeks away from going live.

[sensij]

Yup. They said they'd start at 2, but when I got there, they'd already come and gone. I should have worked at home today.

My point of contact says they'll fix it. That's one thing I like about this outfit; they do try hard to make things right. Let's see what happens with that mount, though.

Or, you can consider selling the Zigbee on ebay for ~$200 and hook up the ethernet yourself

[DanKegel]

the only way to guarantee it will be done right, is to be there and FORCE the issue

Yup. They said they'd start at 2, but when I got there, they'd already come and gone. I should have worked at home today.

My point of contact says they'll fix it. That's one thing I like about this outfit; they do try hard to make things right. Let's see what happens with that mount, though.

[bcroe]

The installer called yesterday and said they'd come by between 2pm and 4pm to hook up the monitoring.
I had emailed them and spoken with them repeatedly about wanting hardwired ethernet,
and even ran the ethernet myself and looped the cable over the front of the inverter so
they wouldn't miss the message. Alas, they came early, and by the time I got home,
they had already left... with my cable ignored, and a wireless antenna on top of the inverter.
Grr. - Dan

So you just learned, the only way to guarantee it will be done right, is to be there and FORCE the issue. I
think I learned that watching someone who was supposed to grease my 62 Olds. I then had to point out some
of the 22 grease fittings he had overlooked. Next week I bought a grease gun (which I still have). Today I
have my own car lift. Bruce Roe

[Sed8Me]

I am just a newbie here... system in but not PTO yet... but I read this and thought the same thing... personally I like to know 'things'... if someone says the pool heater is 25,000 BTUs, I want to understand what a BTU is... when I asked the installers simple questions about the meter readings, they did not know?... when it came time to set up the 'online' portion of the system so they could remotely monitor, I did it myself because they did not seem to know what they were doing...

Truth is, some people are just happy to know what to do, not "why they do it"... but glad to see it was not just me!

[DanKegel]

The installer called yesterday and said they'd come by between 2pm and 4pm to hook up the monitoring.
I had emailed them and spoken with them repeatedly about wanting hardwired ethernet,
and even ran the ethernet myself and looped the cable over the front of the inverter so
they wouldn't miss the message. Alas, they came early, and by the time I got home,
they had already left... with my cable ignored, and a wireless antenna on top of the inverter.
Grr.

It's not like zigbee would even be all that bad, but I did try hard to tell them what I wanted.
I guess it has to be in the contract for them to get the message.

I also mentioned the reverse tilt mount problem to them, and asked their engineer to weigh in.
Let's see what they do.

The bifacials still aren't mounted, the special brackets haven't come in yet.
- Dan

[J.P.M.]

I appreciate your helpful info. It comes wrapped in an awfully prickly package, but nobody's perfect.

Don't mention it. Please.

If I felt the strut issue did not involve safety, you would not have heard from me.

As for any of my info/opinion being helpful, opinions vary. Thank you for your condescension of allowing me a human quality, but please be assured I'm quite aware of being less than perfect.

However, I'll be sure to give your expressed opinion all the consideration it deserves, especially coming from someone who also admits to being imperfect.

The last word is yours.

[DanKegel]

I appreciate your helpful info. It comes wrapped in an awfully prickly package, but nobody's perfect.

[J.P.M.]

I thought the solar company was supposed to provide the engineering expertise. Evidently they're more of a kit user, and out of their depth on anything not handled by their standard kit.

That'd be fine if they used a pre-engineered reverse tilt kit. I've started another thread to collect info about those.

It's funny... JPM seems to be blaming the victim a bit here. I appreciate his help in pointing out the issues, though.

Yea, you'd think that huh ? Well I'd suggest that most companies do, but only to the extent required by law and some common sense. Perhaps other's definition of those terms is a bit different than yours ? Or, as your handle once said: you're no expert, but you like science.

No blame or victims here, unless victims of our own mental sloth, or unless you call pointing out some possible consequences of what I see as a general and common lack of awareness that people take some responsibility for what happens to them to be blame.

Just telling it like I see it. Opinions vary. To the extent you believe it to be blame, and if it applies to you, take it that way. Otherwise, leave it.

[DanKegel]

I thought the solar company was supposed to provide the engineering expertise.

I'd feel more comfortable if they used a pre-engineered reverse tilt kit. I've started another thread to collect info about those.

It's funny... JPM seems to be blaming the victim a bit here. I appreciate his help in pointing out the issues, though.

[J.P.M.]

It'd be helpful to have a link to an article about the hazards here and/or on something more United States oriented on how to properly design reverse tilt mounts.

It might be, but as a practical matter, that might be getting into an area of engineering design that's somewhat particular to each application in a way that might involve some liability questions. Also, rules of thumb such as may be the result are usually not much use except for measuring thumbs, particularly if/when safety might be an issue. That's one reason why building codes tend to be proscriptive rather than performance oriented.

I'd suggest seeking out an engineering professional after some honest and sober reflection as to the self efficacy of dealing with such questions, and in so doing, erring on the side of caution as to knowing one's limits. An increased probability of property damage or personal injury or worse can be the result of ignorance.

I'm fully aware that most arrays have little, if anything in the way of actual structural or other engineering design considerations and don't fail, at least not immediately. AFAIK, most off standard designs usually rely upon, and chew into, factors of safety and careful thought that are supposed to make up for the unseen and for mistakes, but not laziness or deliberate ignorance borne of such laziness.

[DanKegel]

Pointing out something potentially dangerous doesn't make someone a prick. It's helpful.

I couldn't find anything at all about using Ironridge or Sunmodo for reverse tilt on steep sloped roofs.

Unirac specifically advises against it:
http://unirac.com/wp-content/uploads...LICABILITY.PDF

Spice Solar's one reference to reverse tilt,
http://www.spicesolar.com/wp-content...-TILT-ELEV.pdf
shows a joint at the roof surface.

Most detailed info I found so far is from an Australian outfit.
http://www.clenergy.com/Products/Mou...ack/Solar-Roof
has an adjustable tilt leg installation guide that looks like it gives good guidance:
http://www.clenergy.com/getmedia/1e8..._V3-2.pdf.aspx
and it does indeed have a joint at the roof surface as you suggested.

Having that data isn't quite enough to go to the installer and say "you did it wrong, rip out the existing supports, void the warranty on the roof, and install something different", but I might be able to say "I don't think that reverse tilt is to code".

It'd be helpful to have a link to an article about the hazards here and/or on something more united-states oriented on how to properly design reverse tilt mounts.
And/or success reports from the field with reverse tilt mount kits in the US. I guess I should start a separate thread for that question.

[J.P.M.]

Hey, I'm a babe in the woods when it comes to mounting solar panels. Do you know of a list of good steep-roof reverse-tilt mount kits I can point them to and say "If you don't have an engineer on staff to design mounts properly, you should be using one of these instead of improvising"?

And I'm not trying to get away with anything here. I'm just a guy who trusted an installer when they said they could do reverse-tilt mounts. I'd like to have some good ammo Monday when I talk to them about this.

Dan: The short answer to your question is no. And, for a lot of reasons, practical, legal and ethical, I do not make recommendations dealing with specific engineering questions without a contract.

I only wrote what I did because I saw something that may be, IMO, dangerous. Part of the attitude I picked up from an engineering career that some call being a prick.

However, Google is not a prick. A quick search will lead you to many ideas and options. Not recommending anything, except that you seek qualified advice from a P.E., but Ironridge has a tilt leg assembly that may be a good idea generator for you. I've also seen some stuff by a co. called Sunmodo that seems fit for purpose. I'm sure there are others.

As you peruse websites, note that the longer (upper) strut is usually, or often, oriented normal the panel, and that the adjustable struts are usually slide (sleeve) types that keep the strut from bending.

As for your motive(s), I did not mean to imply you are trying to get away with anything. However, and not a knock, my experience is that inspector attention to detail and opinion as to what's important tends to vary some with their experience and/opinion. They are still however, always right.

I'll save my opinions about people such as yourself who seem to want to save the world with solar/R.E. without, IMO anyway, much concern for practical details or the consequences of not taking the time to deal with the details for some other time.

Until then, take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.