AC Disconnect for Solar panels

[solar13]

Hi,
I want to install grid tied solar panel and i am wondering if anyone can tell me if the AC disconnect has to be outside beside the meter or can the disconnect be inside the house i am planning to run the AC cable from the solar panels through the inside of the house put a disconnect beside the electrical panel in the basement and then go out to the meter......By the way I live in Toronto, Ontario.

Thanks,for your help

[Mike90250]

LA County & So Cal Edison want it near the meter, outside, so Edison crews and firefighters can disconnect, I had to install a "pull plug" so a crew can pull the interlock buss bars out.

[russ]

@ Solar13 - First, welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

As Mike pointed out and to expand on it - there are code requirements, local variations, utility requirements and on.

On a practical basis, what the utility required Mike to do seems like a good thing. In the event of an emergency when you may not be around you want the firemen to be able to make the disconnect quickly and easily.

Russ

[Sou]

As said, you'd have to check with your local utility for local requirements.

With my grid connected installation there is a switch inside at the fuse box plus an AC switch and a separate DC switch outside beside the inverter - with instructions on the order of switching off if it's ever necessary to do so. (As well as a great big sticker in the meter box with SOLAR written on it, in case someone doesn't see the roof covered in solar panels )

Seems sensible to have a switch outside.

[anthem]

Just adding to this - this really depends on the POCO. Also AHJ might have an opinion although the NEC code only says "readily accessible". So, while you could interpret that as by the breaker panel, etc - there might be other "opinions".

Also, just because the POCO may want it by the meter, they have granted exceptions (PGE doesn't even require it anymore). They still require an AC disconnect, but may allow it near the mechanical (or outside area closest to inside breaker panels if they are fairly far away). So, while they may want an AC disconnect and would prefer it near their meter, they may accept it elsewhere (if its more convenient) and you properly label the meter area that a solar disconnect is at XXXX.

[Sunking]

To my knowledge in every jurisdiction will require the AC disconnect in plain sight of the utility meter. The reason is quite simple, the very first thing the Fire Department does when arriving on the scene of a fire is to pull the meter out to kill the power, so therefor it only makes sense to put the disconnect next to the utility meter.

[anthem]

It seems to be a mixed bag. It seems its more a requirement of POCO than AHJ's. I certainly don't have a lot of experience in many jurisdictions but my reading of the code is that it isn't 'required' to be outside though some can interpret the code any way they want. But almost every POCO seems to require it except for PGE.. .

I am /not/ arguing whether its a good idea or bad idea - just that there are various opinions and regulations on the matter.

[Sunking]

It seems its more a requirement of POCO than AHJ's. I certainly don't have a lot of experience in many jurisdictions but my reading of the code is that it isn't 'required' to be outside though some can interpret the code any way they want. But almost every POCO seems to require it except for PGE

From NEC POV, in all cases this disconnect must be “readily accessible,” which means it must not be in locked compartments, no ladders are required to access it, and no building material must be removed to get to it [690.14, 100-readily accessible]. These requirements were established many years ago to allow fire response personnel to quickly and safely shut off power to a building on fire that might require the firefighters to enter and cut holes in walls, ceilings and roofs. In life threatening situations, time is of the essence.

However the NEC are the minimum requirements. Local Jurisdictions can accept a NEC code cycle in full, or make additional amendments. So this is where I am coming from, as I do not know of any jurisdictions that do not require the disconnect in plain site of the utility meter.

[anthem]

From NEC POV, in all cases this disconnect must be “readily accessible,” which means it must not be in locked compartments, no ladders are required to access it, and no building material must be removed to get to it [690.14, 100-readily accessible]. These requirements were established many years ago to allow fire response personnel to quickly and safely shut off power to a building on fire that might require the firefighters to enter and cut holes in walls, ceilings and roofs. In life threatening situations, time is of the essence.

I think you're stretching the definition of "readily accessible". It is as you print it - but your interpretation is stretching it much further that what is printed.

"Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached
quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those
to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or
to resort to portable ladders, and so forth."

Basically, most breaker panels (SE, etc) are considered to be "readily accessible". Therefore, you cannot apply "readily accessible" as MUST being outside by the meter. That's an extension that may or may not apply to everyone's opinion/interpretation of the matter. Other parts of code read as such "Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors." - which basically implies that "readily accessible" is NOT a requirement for it being OUTDOOR. Otherwise the option for a readily accessible location would not be qualified with "either outside of a building or structure or inside". On top of that - "readily accessible" can be interpreted in different ways based on what is applicable. For instance CT disconnect boxes need to be "readily accessible". But guess what - every CT disconnect box I know is locked. So, while a fire response team can easily cut a CT box to get access to it, apparently a locked CT box is also considered "readily accessible", though a service entrance breaker that is locked certainly would not qualify.

Oh, and if its absolutely required by code, why would PGE put this statement out :

http://www.pge.com/b2b/newgenerator/acdisconnectswitches/

Thats like the electric company saying - GFCI isn't required to be in bathrooms, but is a good idea. So, their interpretation of the NEC code is that it isn't required and they don't require it. They certainly wouldn't allow anything that isn't code ? right ? Now, that being said, some AHJ will supercede and/or interpret the code differently, but that isn't what we're debating here.

That being said - like I said, its a good idea. But its pretty obvious this isnt required by code everywhere. I know Dominion Power would like it near the meter, but will grant it elsewhere as long as its adequately labeled that the disconnect is elsewhere and they have admitted to me fully that it isnt NEC code, but just THEIR interconnection requirements. My local JHA has said that it is NOT a requirement for them as well but they do like to see it.

[Sunking]

I think you're stretching the definition of "readily accessible". It is as you print it - but your interpretation is stretching it much further that what is printed.


Basically, most breaker panels (SE, etc) are considered to be "readily accessible". Therefore, you cannot apply "readily accessible" as MUST being outside by the meter.

No I am not stretching it, I never said it MUST be outside by the meter per NEC. Requiring it to be outside by the meter would be a local amendment.

[anthem]

No I am not stretching it, I never said it MUST be outside by the meter per NEC. Requiring it to be outside by the meter would be a local amendment.

Then you shouldn't have been quoting NEC code and using the "readily accessible" term/interpretation to back up your argument. . . Local amendment to NEC code is not NEC code.

I already conceded early on that its a good idea but fully qualifying it that it doesn't seem to be required by code but by local POCO and JHA.

[Sunking]

Anthem go back to post # 4 where I said:

To my knowledge in every jurisdiction will require the AC disconnect in plain sight of the utility meter.

No where in that statement did I mention anything about NEC, only Local Jurisdictions. In post # 8 I referenced NEC and defined "Readily Accessible" and article number for which it is quoted, and then defined what "Readily Accessible" means per NEC. So bottom line is in every post I made I clearly said that it would be a local jurisdiction requirement.

I agree the POCO may also require the disconnect located at the meter, but that is not electrical code, that is contractual obligation.

[anthem]

Anthem go back to post # 4 where I said:

No where in that statement did I mention anything about NEC, only Local Jurisdictions. In post # 8 I referenced NEC and defined "Readily Accessible" and article number for which it is quoted, and then defined what "Readily Accessible" means per NEC. So bottom line is in every post I made I clearly said that it would be a local jurisdiction requirement.

I agree the POCO may also require the disconnect located at the meter, but that is not electrical code, that is contractual obligation.

Yes, but you followed that up with this which IS quoting code to justify your argument.

[QUOTE=Sunking;14226]From NEC POV, in all cases this disconnect must be

[Mike90250]

OK folks - settle down. I'm not going to take sides and parse out who quoted what in reference to whatever.

Lets not get in to "he said" "they said" "somone else said" "then you said".

There's NEC, locals, and inspectors, and they all pick and chose

[cpcordell]

LA County & So Cal Edison want it near the meter, outside, so Edison crews and firefighters can disconnect, I had to install a "pull plug" so a crew can pull the interlock buss bars out.

I am very close to going with the Andalay/Westinghouse solution. I saw your post here and I live in unincorporated LA County as well (under Edison).
I was wondering if you had the contact information for the permit process as I wasted 30 mins with Edison and kept getting transferred around as nobody could tell me what I needed to do, if anything, to get Edison's blessing to use the Andalay AC panels, etc.

Also, permit wise, I was at Costco last night and they are pushing a Lennox A/C with Andalay Solar combo. I already have A/C but they said that the AC from the Andalay panels could be wired right to my A/C junction box as they do it if it is closer than the main distribution panel. They do it as part of their install of course but it appears to be an easy interface as well for power -- not sure where to get the permit from.

I am picking Andalay since I have a smaller budget and can start small and add each year with the tax return, etc. Their roof mounts for my concrete tile roof are very easy to install as well and seems to minimize roof issues.

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.