Solar installation kit quote prices. I have questions..

[J.P.M.]

I am not sure what type of projects you perform the design on but I have been a Capital Project Manager/Engineer for major industrial jobs for over 30 years and on most of my projects the Contractors will mark up both material and labor costs to cover their overhead and profit. Maybe not to 30% but normally at least 15 to 20% and as high as 25% depending on how short the time constraints that are set by the customer. You could find a cheaper Contractor but based on my experience you get what you pay for. Cheap Contractors work off of a very slim profit margin so there is not much incentive for them and you end up with more headaches trying to fix the low quality installation. Sure I never hire them again but they find someone else to build for and somehow get by with the low profits and shoddy work. If the Contractor has to find, purchase and stage the parts for the job his time is worth a % markup and if you think it isn't then you have never run a crew and have to account for your time. So it is not an argument but a statement of fact that they have "other costs" because they run a business and are not just laborers you find on the street corner. If you want a good Contractor you will pay a reasonable amount of markup on every component he provides and installs. That is not going to change no matter what you believe. If you find someone that works for next to nothing they may be good but more than likely they are just scraping by and will work for any price just to keep food on the table. So I disagree with you that even looking at all my options, 9 times out of 10 I will get a higher quality job installation paying more for a Contractor then going with the bottom price.

FWIW, +1. From one of my engineering mentors: You want nice, you pay nice.

[SunEagle]

FWIW, +1. From one of my engineering mentors: You want nice, you pay nice.

Regardless of what some people think, when it comes to a specialty installation (solar being one) it is worth paying a little more to get a quality job done.

Look at what HX_Guy went through. He ended up redoing most of the work as well as having to deal with his AHJ due to the install not matching the permit drawings.

Everyone wants to save their money but saving a few thousand by getting cheap inexperienced labor IMO will cost you a lot more later.

Wasn't there an oil filter commercial stating something like "pay me a little more now or pay me a lot more later"?

[J.P.M.]

Regardless of what some people think, when it comes to a specialty installation (solar being one) it is worth paying a little more to get a quality job done. Look at what HX_Guy went through. He ended up redoing most of the work as well as having to deal with his AHJ due to the install not matching the permit drawings. Everyone wants to save their money but saving a few thousand by getting cheap inexperienced labor IMO will cost you a lot more later. Wasn't there an oil filter commercial stating something like "pay me a little more now or pay me a lot more later"?

Buy cheap, buy twice. Terrible to pay too much, worse to pay too little. Low buck and most bang for the buck are not the same. Low price is quickly forgotten. Poor quality is its own constant reminder. There ain't no free lunch. The list goes on. Some olds sayings are as true as ever. Particularly with home improvements - solar being one of the latest and still subject to the same common old sense. What part of "You get what you pay for" is unclear ?

[sensij]

The flip side to all this is that there is no shortage of installers who will charge $4-$4.50 / W for a turnkey system that another installer might put in for $3.50 / W, with the same equipment and ultimately no difference in installation quality. SxxLxxx and Sxxxxxxx in particular seem to thrive in this niche, complete with the aggrieved attitude when the idea of $ / W pricing is brought up, and the fast "no quote" when pushed to talk prices that begin with a 3.

In the list of aphorisms that apply to this business, I would include "There's a sucker born every minute".

[SunEagle]

Buy cheap, buy twice. Terrible to pay too much, worse to pay too little. Low buck and most bang for the buck are not the same. Low price is quickly forgotten. Poor quality is its own constant reminder. There ain't no free lunch. The list goes on. Some olds sayings are as true as ever. Particularly with home improvements - solar being one of the latest and still subject to the same common old sense. What part of "You get what you pay for" is unclear ?

IMO the issue is that most people feel labor costs should be less for "their" job because they believe they are "too high" and don't want to spend any money getting the job done right.

This apparently comes from thinking "others" are getting paid too much for doing too little. Dire Straits had a song called "money for nothing and chics for free" which is pretty much the way a lot of people without high paying jobs think.

Yet those same people go to sports events and will spend all kinds of money for the tickets, food and beer which helps keep the multi-millionaire team owners and players happy. I guess it comes down to personal priorities on how to spend their money and what they want to gripe about paying too much.

[J.P.M.]

The flip side to all this is that there is no shortage of installers who will charge $4-$4.50 / W for a turnkey system that another installer might put in for $3.50 / W, with the same equipment and ultimately no difference in installation quality. SxxLxxx and Sxxxxxxx in particular seem to thrive in this niche, complete with the aggrieved attitude when the idea of $ / W pricing is brought up, and the fast "no quote" when pushed to talk prices that begin with a 3. In the list of aphorisms that apply to this business, I would include "There's a sucker born every minute".

FWIW, +1, and to reiterate, the list goes on. I thought about changing "You get what you pay for" to "you get what you pay for - or less.", but the edit function is still FUBAR for me. In the end, selling solar, or buying it, for that matter is no different than selling/buying most anything else. Ignorance, usually, or at least often self induced, will get you screwed. There's not much new under the sun in that regard. Another old but applicable saw: Knowledge is power. Aside from not buying anything, reading up and getting informed is the best defense against getting screwed.

[Living Large]

If a carpenter was building an addition for you, you would pay them a profit on the labor, not on the cost of the lumber.

I don't believe it works that way. You may be assuming that based on your experience in a different venue.

What I would do in your shoes is look at the $/watt and compare... unless you believe you can do the job yourself, which is a whole other subject.

[justcerfin]

Well said
99% of people have no clue how much it costs to run a business at a SUSTAINABLE profit level.
Yes there are bottom feeders that will do a job for essentially wages.
But what happens when there is a problem.
There is an old saying in this business regarding problems.
We have an out of sight great warranty.
Translation once we are out of sight you are out of warranty.
Caveat emptor.

I am not a business owner and I can't say I understand what it takes to run one, let alone keep it profitable. I only know what I am willing to pay for something and I have always been one to find ways to get the same/similar thing for less. I understand you get what you pay for but I also take note on finding the most bang for my buck. I realize lesser priced things are almost lesser quality, and the possibility for more problems. I do however trust my judgement in how I've made decisions before and I'm willing to take some risks. If I do this my way, I will be able to get solar, if I do it the traditional way, I don't think I would pull the trigger on solar. My thoughts have always been I would find someone to get this install done and have a roofer come to my house and finish by doing any roof repairs if needed. I live in California and we have barely had any rain as it is but I still don't want to take a chance anyway. Thanks for you comments.

[Riverside Solar]

The bottom dollar option

The bottom dollar option usually hangs out on Craigslist. Have you checked there yet?
I just looked around Bakersfield there is a guy named Bill that does Solar installations.
Looks like he even gives a senior discount of 10% and accepts credit cards. If you aren't
a senior citizen you could get a costume and some makeup or a mask get 10% off then you
could get some miles by using your credit card. Sounds like a deal and Bills number is right
there. Could be worth a call.

[Carl_NH]

Interesting reading this thread and I too am of the opinion prices in North America are high due to the rebates and credits offered and installers are making a nice profit. Also I believe we are still in the early adoption phase at least here in the eastern US whereby the early adopters pay more than when it becomes a commodity.

Several members here are from Australia, and also UK, where Solar PV systems are 20% less for the same equipment, while labor costs are as high if not higher.

The statement made here "knowledge is power", and that is so true as being informed and knowledgeable about what you need and want from a system before calling vendor 1 you will get a good deal and a good installation.

From our installation, the crew was on site a total of 48 man hours for a 7.2KW system over 2 days, so call it 50 hours with travel and prep. If the average wage is $30/hr then double that to $60/hr to cover overhead so $3000 in overhead cost. Then the office admin, sales people and commission, and management add another $3000 to the overall cost. The point is this is $6000 of the $26,200 (our installed price) or 23%. Then 50-55% is the hardware and wiring. So that leaves 20% margins at the end of the day or about $.90 a Watt.

Do I regret they made a profit, no, were they the lowest cost, no, and do they have to provide warranty and support for 5 or 10 years, yes. So they need sufficient profit and reserves to grow the business and also support their existing customers.

[justcerfin]

The bottom dollar option usually hangs out on Craigslist. Have you checked there yet?
I just looked around Bakersfield there is a guy named Bill that does Solar installations.
Looks like he even gives a senior discount of 10% and accepts credit cards. If you aren't
a senior citizen you could get a costume and some makeup or a mask get 10% off then you
could get some miles by using your credit card. Sounds like a deal and Bills number is right
there. Could be worth a call.

I would but that seems a bit far from me. Air miles would be awesome!

[SunEagle]

Interesting reading this thread and I too am of the opinion prices in North America are high due to the rebates and credits offered and installers are making a nice profit. Also I believe we are still in the early adoption phase at least here in the eastern US whereby the early adopters pay more than when it becomes a commodity. Several members here are from Australia, and also UK, where Solar PV systems are 20% less for the same equipment, while labor costs are as high if not higher. The statement made here "knowledge is power", and that is so true as being informed and knowledgeable about what you need and want from a system before calling vendor 1 you will get a good deal and a good installation. From our installation, the crew was on site a total of 48 man hours for a 7.2KW system over 2 days, so call it 50 hours with travel and prep. If the average wage is $30/hr then double that to $60/hr to cover overhead so $3000 in overhead cost. Then the office admin, sales people and commission, and management add another $3000 to the overall cost. The point is this is $6000 of the $26,200 (our installed price) or 23%. Then 50-55% is the hardware and wiring. So that leaves 20% margins at the end of the day or about $.90 a Watt. Do I regret they made a profit, no, were they the lowest cost, no, and do they have to provide warranty and support for 5 or 10 years, yes. So they need sufficient profit and reserves to grow the business and also support their existing customers.

You forgot to add the cost of the Contractor's tools which depreciates for each job, plus travel expenses, his time, insurance costs, drawing up the permit documents and submitting them, and I can think of a few more items that you and most others forget to include in the cost of any type of installation. Unless you have run your own business or have performed detailed cost estimates you will never be able to "break down" all the costs of running a project to completion. Sure he made a profit but that is part of running a successful business. Too big a profit will lose him future jobs. Too little will lose the business.

[Naptown]

You forgot to add the cost of the Contractor's tools which depreciates for each job, plus travel expenses, his time, insurance costs, drawing up the permit documents and submitting them, and I can think of a few more items that you and most others forget to include in the cost of any type of installation. Unless you have run your own business or have performed detailed cost estimates you will never be able to "break down" all the costs of running a project to completion. Sure he made a profit but that is part of running a successful business. Too big a profit will lose him future jobs. Too little will lose the business.

Not that I want to jump on board the moderators bully pulpit but there are many things that cost money that are not readily apparent in an estimate.
There are major differences in the way overhead are handled between residential and commercial.
I do both.
At the end of the day we have to look at how much time is spent to bring in X number of dollars.
Granted we make money on materials etc.
if you don't like a markup then I suggest you never go to a store like Macy's or Nordstrom where if it costs them a dollar they sell it for 4
How do you think the 50% off works
They are still making money.

[J.P.M.]

As a buyer, and also someone who's been on the selling side of the table for more than a few years, I've perhaps seen some of how markets can and often do work. FWIW, I'm of the opinion that gov. subsidies and credits tend to increase prices and perhaps allow sellers who would otherwise fail - to survive, and also remove some of the incentive for good outfits to get sharper out of necessity. I'm also of the opinion that I, as a consumer, have absolute freedom to buy or not buy a product from anyone based on my information and opinions. Informed users usually have that information available. If I think I can get a better deal using other means to my desired ends or another vendor because I think someone is making too much money off me, no one has a gun to my head forcing me to do anything. Bitching about a vendor because of some perceived price gouging or excess profit seems like senseless sour grapes . Don't like the price - negotiate or go elsewhere.

[Carl_NH]

You forgot to add the cost of the Contractor's tools which depreciates for each job, plus travel expenses, his time, insurance costs, drawing up the permit documents and submitting them, and I can think of a few more items that you and most others forget to include in the cost of any type of installation. Unless you have run your own business or have performed detailed cost estimates you will never be able to "break down" all the costs of running a project to completion. Sure he made a profit but that is part of running a successful business. Too big a profit will lose him future jobs. Too little will lose the business.

Yes I have run my own business, requiring investment in hardware, software, insurance and staff. The bulk of the costs were startup related and the first year or two building it were pretty thin but once going it was a matter of sustaining momentum making more sales, and keeping customers happy.