Advice for hiring electrician to install manual transfer switch

[Sunking]

So now my question is: Are GFCI and bonded ground-neutral mutually inclusive?

GFCI needs no ground and no they are mutually exclusive.

[Sunking]

He said that if the generator is bonded neutral GFCI that I would need a three pole transfer switch (eg XRC0603C) which evidently is a much bigger job to install that a pre-wired transfer switch. He described it as the same amount of work as installing a new panel.

He is exactly right, if the Genny has a Bonded Neutral, it is SDS and requires 3-poles, exactly what I have told you. GFCI has nothing to do with it. Generator outputs are GFCI because the Generator cannot produce enough current to operate the main breaker fast enough, just like an Inverter cannot deliver enough current to operate a main and even some branch circuits. As a general rule it takes 6X current to operate a Fuse/Breaker quickly. Generators and Inverters cannot do that as they are soft sources.

[lkruper]

Great News!

It means the neutral gets bonded twice which is a No-No and doe snot comply with electrical code. What it means is you are now putting load current on a Ground wire which is a N0-N0.

In SDS the Neutral is switched or the 3rd pole in a MTS or ATS. That 3rd pole means more hardware, thus more expensive equipment. It also means the EC must add a 4th wire to the Ground Electrode System which cost mo money in material and labor.

I have gotten good news. Smarter Tools called and my portable generator is neither bonded ground-neutral or GFCI! His only concern was that the generator has so little power that he is concerned it will be overloaded... it is only 13.3 amps. He was also concerned that I find a transfer switch with 110v inputs and not 240v inputs.

[lkruper]

It means the neutral gets bonded twice which is a No-No and doe snot comply with electrical code. What it means is you are now putting load current on a Ground wire which is a N0-N0.

In SDS the Neutral is switched or the 3rd pole in a MTS or ATS. That 3rd pole means more hardware, thus more expensive equipment. It also means the EC must add a 4th wire to the Ground Electrode System which cost mo money in material and labor.

I am still waiting for a call back from Smarter tools, but I have uncovered something interesting that might help. A store that sells generators and transfer switches asked me if my generator were GFCI for all outlets. I have been assuming it was, but the 2000iq (http://www.usesmartertools.com/manua...0IQ_MANUAL.pdf) is listed on the Home Depot web site as NOT having Osha GFCI.

The outlets are the three prong outlets that look just like the normal outlets in my cabin and nothing like the GFCI in my kitchen and bathroom.

So now my question is: Are GFCI and bonded ground-neutral mutually inclusive?

[Living Large]

I am reading this thread with interest, because the cabin I am closing on in a few weeks currently has two portable propane generators sitting on a pad under a sheltered deck. I am planning to add a stationary generator to be the main one. I hadn't considered the subject at hand and realize I have some studying to do. Educational discussion.

[lkruper]

It means th eneitral gets bonded twice which is a No-No and doe snot comply with electrical code. What i tmeans i syou are now putting load current on a Ground wire.

I just had a conversation with technical support at Reliance who makes transfer switches and am waiting for a call back from Smarter Tools who makes my generator. He said that if the generator is bonded neutral GFCI that I would need a three pole transfer switch (eg XRC0603C) which evidently is a much bigger job to install that a pre-wired transfer switch. He described it as the same amount of work as installing a new panel.

Another google search brought up a site that apparently has much stronger caution and says that no modern portable generators can be connected to a transfer switch because of this issue, but that there are "acceptable" work-arounds which might not meet code. Since I am having this inspected, that won't work.

Here is a link to a post that describes how to do this. (http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...ml#post2024634) It is over my head, so I need to hire a very experienced electrician. I remember the county inspector when I had my entire cabin rewired 4 years ago and he was a stickler. I also think I read that many inspectors do come from an electrician background.

[Sunking]

What happens if a portable generator bonds ground to neutral and it is connected to a non-SDS hookup? If I recall my generator has GFI. Also, is SDS much more expensive, or it is just a different way of hooking it up?

It means the neutral gets bonded twice which is a No-No and doe snot comply with electrical code. What it means is you are now putting load current on a Ground wire which is a N0-N0.

In SDS the Neutral is switched or the 3rd pole in a MTS or ATS. That 3rd pole means more hardware, thus more expensive equipment. It also means the EC must add a 4th wire to the Ground Electrode System which cost mo money in material and labor.

[lkruper]

With the caveat that a large number of "portable" generator manufacturers think that UL requires them to bond ground to neutral, and many include a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter on their output.
If you encounter such a beast, you can either try to figure out how to remove the bond and bypass the GFCI, or you can connect it as SDS and switch the neutral.

What happens if a portable generator bonds ground to neutral and it is connected to a non-SDS hookup? If I recall my generator has GFI. Also, is SDS much more expensive, or it is just a different way of hooking it up?

[inetdog]

... Any Portable setup using a Generator Snout and MTS is going to be non SDS 2-pole.

With the caveat that a large number of "portable" generator manufacturers think that UL requires them to bond ground to neutral, and many include a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter on their output.
If you encounter such a beast, you can either try to figure out how to remove the bond and bypass the GFCI, or you can connect it as SDS and switch the neutral.

[Sunking]

Thanks for trying. I think the kind I am interested in, and what satisfies code, is a double pole - double throw which completely disconnects grid power before connecting generator power.

All MTS and ATS has to Break-BeforeMake. Just the nature of the beast. As for how how many poles goes back to the Question you should ask the EC.

A MTS or ATS for Separately Derived Systems (SDS) for 240/120 is 3-poles of L1-L2-N. A MTS/ATS for non SDS is only L1-L2, Neutral is not switched.

If you have a Stationary Pad Mounted Hardwired genny you can go either 3-pole SDS or 2-pole non SDS ATS/MTS. Any Portable setup using a Generator Snout and MTS is going to be non SDS 2-pole.

[lkruper]

I could not tell from the information I could find online.

Thanks for trying. I think the kind I am interested in, and what satisfies code, is a double pole - double throw which completely disconnects grid power before connecting generator power.

For a potential second phase, I am also assuming that if I were to add a solar panel, charge controller, battery and inverter that I could connect the output of the inverter to this transfer switch as well.

What would be cool would be a device that would allow solar and generator to be connected at the same time so that the battery could be charged by the panel or generator while supplying power to the cabin. I am sure someone makes something like that.

[inetdog]

How can you tell? Here is my genny -> http://www.amazon.com/Smarter-Tools-...rter+generator

I could not tell from the information I could find online.

[lkruper]

Find someone who has experience with MTS or ATS generator systems. Really nothing to it. Just ask the EC one question to test him?

Do you recommend the generator to be wired Separately Derived System or Not?

A1. Huh or yes = Run away, do not walk away from the EC.

or

A2. No sir, SDS generators are for stationary hard wired generators and/or commercial/industrial application. Mobile or portables should use non SDS because it is safer, and is less expensive in equipment/materials and labor = Consider him and check his references.



Same as any house with outside plugs, or portable/mobile generators, just follow the codes. Weather Resistance recpets that are GFCI protected.

Thanks, I will memorize the question.

[lkruper]

Use rubber gloves and an umbrella?
Regarding MTS, a lot depends on whether you are going to need a permit, and also on whether the generator has a non-removable bond between neutral and ground/EGC. If it does, you will need a three pole MTS that switches the neutral too.

How can you tell? Here is my genny -> http://www.amazon.com/Smarter-Tools-...rter+generator

[Sunking]

My electrician is not in the area any longer. Are there any things I should do to prepare myself to select the correct type of installation and installer?

Find someone who has experience with MTS or ATS generator systems. Really nothing to it. Just ask the EC one question to test him?

Do you recommend the generator to be wired Separately Derived System or Not?

A1. Huh or yes = Run away, do not walk away from the EC.

or

A2. No sir, SDS generators are for stationary hard wired generators and/or commercial/industrial application. Mobile or portables should use non SDS because it is safer, and is less expensive in equipment/materials and labor = Consider him and check his references.

Also, any advice to running a generator in the rain and plugging into an outdoor socket?

Same as any house with outside plugs, or portable/mobile generators, just follow the codes. Weather Resistance recpets that are GFCI protected.