Guerilla Installation - Metering Issue

[russ]

To bad the OP realized the full charges of his actions now instead of waiting months down the road when he would really be screaming. I hate cheaters.

ditto

[MGE]

To bad the OP realized the full charges of his actions now instead of waiting months down the road when he would really be screaming. I hate cheaters.

[SunEagle]

Most mechanical-only meters have a reversing gear that causes the dials to increase whichever way the disk is rotating.
But even if your dials do go down, the electronic module on your meter is most likely just counting disk revolutions regardless of direction.

If you gauge your usage so that the dial never spins backwards, you will get the full benefit of your system and all that POCO will see is that you seem to be using less power during the day than you used to.
Don't let the dial spin the wrong way, since looking at the mechanical dials is NOT showing you what POCO is reading from the electronic module.

Don't encourage this guy. He installed a pv system without going through the proper procedures and permitting requirements and then tried to "outsmart" (and IMO cheat) the POCO. He actually "outsmarted" himself by increasing his usage (so the meter didn't run backwards) and then foolishly let it go backwards anyway and is now being charged as though he purchased kWh when he actually generated it.

He should turn his PV system off and wait for the new tariffs. Then go apply for his new rate structure and get his system approved and turned on correctly.

Grid tie systems have a potential payback without the need to "cheat" the POCO. He is only adding to the list of reasons the POCO is using to try and get back revenue that they are losing from co-generation. And like any business, they will charge more for their goods when someone steals from them so everyone pays a little more.

The OP screwed up and got penalized for it.

[inetdog]

So do the dials on the meter count up as the wheel reverses direction?

Most mechanical-only meters have a reversing gear that causes the dials to increase whichever way the disk is rotating.
But even if your dials do go down, the electronic module on your meter is most likely just counting disk revolutions regardless of direction.

If you gauge your usage so that the dial never spins backwards, you will get the full benefit of your system and all that POCO will see is that you seem to be using less power during the day than you used to.
Don't let the dial spin the wrong way, since looking at the mechanical dials is NOT showing you what POCO is reading from the electronic module.

[Samsolar]

You were charged for the power you used and donated everything you generated to the grid. Your dumb meter is smarter than you thought it was.

Not really true. The electric (remote read) part of his meter is counting/measuring the delta between what he is using and what he is producing at any given point in time. So if he is producing 4000w and using 1000w, then he is paying for 3000w as that is the energy running through the meter. If he is using 4000w and but only producing 2000w, then he's paying for 2000w. The analog part (dials) of his meter are working perfectly as a net meter, the utility just doesn't use them for billing.

[Panelmal]

You were charged for the power you used and donated everything you generated to the grid. Your dumb meter is smarter than you thought it was.

[thastinger]

So do the dials on the meter count up as the wheel reverses direction?

[SunEagle]

Looks like the Guerrilla got caught due to his greed.

Why do people like you continue to try to fool the nasty Electric Utility people? You only have to blame yourself due to being greedy and not having a clue how your electrical usage is being "metered"

[Samsolar]

Before adding solar panels, my meter was mechanical, but had an added module that allows the utility to do remote reads. I'm quite positive that the electronic module had no way to read the mechanical dials, so I'm pretty sure the electronics measured/counted the rotations of the disc to tally electrical usage. If yours is the same, you're paying for rotations of the disc, regardless of which way the disc is rotating or what the mechanical dials say.

[sensij]

If your meter spun backwards at all, they will know you are in violation of your interconnect agreement, and double billing is probably the least painful of the possible outcomes. Even dumb meters that spin backwards have the ability to keep separate counters for import and export, even if all you can see is the net which looks like it is being managed properly. Thanks for sharing this lesson with others who might be considering something similar.

[russ]

Too bad, so sad - too clever by half types usually get the short straw.

[bcroe]

The dial runs backward, and the numbers run backward. Like I said, I have been
checking this every nite and keeping a spreadsheet of the changes.

So if your meter reads consumption at normal rates, how does the PoCo justify double KWH? My
bills show meter reading at beginning & end of billing period. Bruce Roe

[Guerilla]

The dial runs backward, and the numbers run backward. Like I said, I have been checking this every nite and keeping a spreadsheet of the changes.

[bcroe]

While I was constructing my new approved DIY PV system, I learned about a new tariff program that will be much more lucrative, but it doesn't start for a few months. So I've got a system I don't want to declare complete, even though it is, if I want any chance of getting into this new tariff program, since existing systems are ineligible. I also don't want my bill to go down, because I will probably need to justify the need for my system size when I file a new application, and if my bill plummets, I won't be able to justify the same size as I built.

As a result, I decided to run the system in "guerilla mode", generating electricity, but using it all to heat my house so my bill doesn't go down. So I am keeping an eye on my meter to make sure it is still increasing every day by the amount that it normally has for years. Lets say my solar PV production for the day is 30 kWh, and I normally use 25 kWh/day. That means I need to make sure I use 55 kWh - so that my production doesn't show up at the end of the month. My meter is an old mechanical analog meter that runs backwards when it is sunny, and forwards at night. It is read remotely by the utility.

So here's the problem. Even though I managed it so that my reading at the end of the month showed a "standard increase" similar to what it always does, I got a bill for twice what it normally does!! Even though my meter is running backwards, the power I am producing is not getting subtracted! So all of the extra power I am using to heat my house that should be free because I'm generating that electricity, I am getting charged for!!!!

I can't understand how the meter can be doing this. This is not a smart meter, it is a dumb meter, exactly like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb9SnXb5dYw

How can the meter be reporting a usage different from my "net usage" - ignoring what I produce and charging me for what I use?

I suspect your mechanical meter has a reversing gear (like mine) so that no matter which way the
disc is turning, the dials move forward. So it isn't a "net meter" at all. I don't see any practical
way around this. Bruce Roe

[pleppik]

While I was constructing my new approved DIY PV system, I learned about a new tariff program that will be much more lucrative, but it doesn't start for a few months. So I've got a system I don't want to declare complete, even though it is, if I want any chance of getting into this new tariff program, since existing systems are ineligible. I also don't want my bill to go down, because I will probably need to justify the need for my system size when I file a new application, and if my bill plummets, I won't be able to justify the same size as I built.

As a result, I decided to run the system in "guerilla mode", generating electricity, but using it all to heat my house so my bill doesn't go down. So I am keeping an eye on my meter to make sure it is still increasing every day by the amount that it normally has for years. Lets say my solar PV production for the day is 30 kWh, and I normally use 25 kWh/day. That means I need to make sure I use 55 kWh - so that my production doesn't show up at the end of the month. My meter is an old mechanical analog meter that runs backwards when it is sunny, and forwards at night. It is read remotely by the utility.

So here's the problem. Even though I managed it so that my reading at the end of the month showed a "standard increase" similar to what it always does, I got a bill for twice what it normally does!! Even though my meter is running backwards, the power I am producing is not getting subtracted! So all of the extra power I am using to heat my house that should be free because I'm generating that electricity, I am getting charged for!!!!

I can't understand how the meter can be doing this. This is not a smart meter, it is a dumb meter, exactly like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb9SnXb5dYw

How can the meter be reporting a usage different from my "net usage" - ignoring what I produce and charging me for what I use?

So you tried to be cute, something didn't work the way you expected, and now it's going to cost you money.

There's lots of reasons why this might have happened, including the fact that some older non-bidirectional meters will register power exported to the grid as power bought. It's also possible whatever you were doing to soak up the extra power wound up using a lot more power than you thought.

But as I see it, you're pretty much stuck. You can't complain to the power company without fessing up, and they won't be happy. Best to just pull the breaker on your panels until you're ready to actually sign up for the solar tariff and properly commission your system. The power company will probably need to install a new meter as part of this process, one which properly measures bidirectional power.

Consider this an expensive lesson, though much less expensive than the lesson you would have gotten if you tried to play cute with the electrical code instead.