Grounding and Lightning protection

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  • lile001
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2010
    • 105

    #1

    Grounding and Lightning protection

    Tekart posted a really great review of his system in another thread. I was a little worried about his approach to grounding and lightning protection

    solar,solar power,solar panel,Watt,feed-in tariff,electric,power,energy,KWh,energy,Watt,inverter,ground,grounding,WEEB,lightning,rod,bond,IronRidge,Genesis


    Here is a couple of things to think about:

    1. Try to avoid cutting off ground rods. Hitting a granite shelf? Then you are really in deep doodoo. Not because your ground rod won't go in, but because granite is a poor conductor of electricity. Areas with granite are more vulnerable to lightning damage, precisely because granite is a terrible conductor and it is hard to get a good solid ground.

    If you hit rock with a ground rod, don't reach for a hacksaw! Reach for a shovel. You can bury your ground rod at an angle, but it must be full length to meet code and do a good job. The deeper the better and the wetter the soil the better. In fact you'd be better off with a #6 bare copper wire buried in a ring around your house, in granite country, than a sawed-off ground rod. And don't let the building inspector see saw marks on top of your ground rod, unless you want to incur his wrath!

    2. OK, homemade lightning rods. Why? UL master label lightning protection components are *expensive*. I am playing around with this idea as well. Here is where the hacksaw might come in handy - a short ground rod section might make a pretty good lightning rod. It also makes part of a nice decoration on top of my chimney cap.

    3. How many lightning rods? A UL master label lightning system would use a rod every 20-30 feet on the peak ridge of the roof. Is that guaranteed to work? No, there are no guarantees when it comes to lightning protection. But that is what the code says to do (NFPA 780, which is thankfully optional and can't be enforced by the building inspector)

    --LAwrence
    Lawrence Lile, PE
  • Sunking
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2010
    • 23301

    #2
    Well I read the links, and this is a very good example of why folks should not DIY their solar systems. Nothing he did complies with electrical codes. In fact one violation is going to cause his equipment to be burned to a crisp if lightning strikes nearby.
    MSEE, PE

    Comment

    • lile001
      Solar Fanatic
      • Feb 2010
      • 105

      #3
      Originally posted by Sunking
      Well I read the links, and this is a very good example of why folks should not DIY their solar systems. Nothing he did complies with electrical codes. In fact one violation is going to cause his equipment to be burned to a crisp if lightning strikes nearby.
      I didn't want to throw too many rocks at the poor fellow - he's done a great- looking job and has documented it in a way that others can follow along. However, I am pretty nervous about the sawed-off ground rod. He also says:

      Lighting protection: "I began by pounding in a ground rod on the corner of the building - this is completely separate from the mains electrical ground rod that is at the other corner of the building. "

      Tekart: Please bond that separate ground rod to your service entrance electrical system ground with a hefty #6 copper wire. (preferably a ground ring, all the way around your building.) Having two separate, unconnected grounds on your building is looking for trouble. There will usually be some voltage between the two grounds, which can cause galvanic corrosion. But if lightning strikes within 1/2 mile, there will be *thousands* of volts between these two ground systems. It is a very common myth that separate grounds are "clean". Yeah, they'll blow your electrical stuff "clean" off the wall.

      Like I said, man, you've done a great job documenting a good-looking installation, don't take our comments the wrong way - we want you to be successful.
      Lawrence Lile, PE

      Comment

      • lile001
        Solar Fanatic
        • Feb 2010
        • 105

        #4
        Another item often missed: LIghtning arrestors. Delta Electronics makes a solid line of lightning arrestors for both AC and DC systems. You should have one of each.



        For good lightning protection, you should have one of these items on your DC bus, on the AC disconnect just past your inverter, and on the main panelboard of the house. Also you should have a lightning arrestor on your *phone line* or cable lines right where they come into the house. Why? A nearby lightning strike may raise the voltage of your entire house to several thousand volts. Like a bird on a high voltage wire, this is no big deal as long as you don't touch anything grounded. But guess what? Your phone line is connected to something that is grounded - the phone company's switch two miles away. And your computer is probably plugged into it, or to your cable line. Ka-Zap!

        Lawrence Lile, PE
        Lawrence Lile, PE

        Comment

        • Sunking
          Solar Fanatic
          • Feb 2010
          • 23301

          #5
          Well perhaps I was a bit short to start with, but my fears are someone will read the link and come away thinking this is the right way to do things, when in fact it does not comply with electrical codes. Take it one step further and there is a very good chance his equipment will be burned up (not limited to the solar equipment, but everything in the house), and high risk of burning the home down.

          The code violations are numerous. For example:
          • 1/2-inch steel rods were used. NEC 250.52(5)(b): Electrodes of rods of iron or steel SHALL BE a minimum of 5/8 inch diameter.
          • Cutting the rods: NEC 250.53 (G) The rod electrode SHALL BE installed such that at least 8 feet of length is in contact with the soil. It SHALL BE driven to a depth of not less than 8 feet except that, where rock bottom is encountered, the electrode SHALL BE at an oblique angle not to exceed 45 degrees from the vertical, or where rock bottom is encountered at an angle up to 45 degrees, the electrode SHALL BE PERMITTED to be buried in a trench that is at least 30 inches deep.
          • Lastly having the LPS separated from the AC service ground is the big one that puts the installation at great risk of fire and electrocution, not to mention clear blue sky malfunctions. This is in clear non compliance with many sections of the NEC which include 250.2, 250.4, 250.58, 250.60, 690.41, 690.42, and 690.43


          A good friend of mine John Miles of NMSU and Sandia National Lab wrote NEC article 690 for Solar PV system has written an excellent document titled PV & NEC Suggested Practices It is written for professionals but it has a lot of good diagrams and examples and covers all electrical code requirement.

          Lastly from what I can tell, there was no reason to install a Lightning aerial terminal, and by doing so greatly increases the risk of a strike, and by improper techniques compounds the problem.
          MSEE, PE

          Comment

          • Mike90250
            Moderator
            • May 2009
            • 16020

            #6
            Originally posted by Sunking
            There is nothing about this installation that meets electrical code requirement, or known industrial commercial installation and engineering practices.
            Balderdash !! the WEEB hardware is approved for grounding.


            joke install we're referring to :
            solar,solar power,solar panel,Watt,feed-in tariff,electric,power,energy,KWh,energy,Watt,inverter,ground,grounding,WEEB,lightning,rod,bond,IronRidge,Genesis
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment

            • Sunking
              Solar Fanatic
              • Feb 2010
              • 23301

              #7
              Originally posted by Mike90250
              Balderdash !! the WEEB hardware is approved for grounding.
              Feldercarb Me.
              MSEE, PE

              Comment

              • lile001
                Solar Fanatic
                • Feb 2010
                • 105

                #8
                Here is a good source of parts for residential lightning protection




                Their prices are better than anyone else on the net.

                Robbins site isn't slick, however there are some scoundrels (as there have always been) out there selling lightning rods - I have heard you should avoid lightningrodparts.com and lightningrod.com - if you want to know why look them up on ripoffreport.com


                Robbins prices are quite reasonable - I got enough wire and parts to cover my roof for $250. They take internet orders but it is better to just call them up - they know their business and can recommend parts and solutions. The solar panel mounts will be bonded to an aluminum downcomer (sized to NFPA 780 - it's about the same as 1/0 cable) which transitions to copper about 4 feet off the ground, and then goes through conduit for the last 48". The ground rod will connect to a ground ring that encircles my house (OK, the ground ring wasn't included in the price quoted above) and ties to the main ground rod by the service panel. Four ground rods at the corners anchor the ground ring, which is buried about two foot out from the slab foundation. The slab, by the way, is also grounded through the rebar. OK, I'm an electrical engineer and I believe in grounding and bonding. If it saves one inverter from a lightning bolt, I've paid for the whole lightning system.
                Last edited by lile001; 04-09-2010, 07:16 PM. Reason: found lightningrodparts.com on ripoffreport.com
                Lawrence Lile, PE

                Comment

                • lile001
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 105

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Sunking
                  Well perhaps I was a bit short to start with, but my fears are someone will read the link and come away thinking this is the right way to do things, when in fact it does not comply with electrical codes. Take it one step further and there is a very good chance his equipment will be burned up (not limited to the solar equipment, but everything in the house), and high risk of burning the home down.

                  The code violations are numerous. For example:
                  [LIST].
                  Thanks Derek! I hope that helps some folks avoid a big problem. Proper grounding seems very boring, however it may prove the undoing of an otherwise dandy solar installation if done incorrectly.
                  Lawrence Lile, PE

                  Comment

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