New solar/wood stove radiant guy in the beautious mountains of northern California.

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  • Jeff Morrow
    Junior Member
    • Oct 2012
    • 3

    New solar/wood stove radiant guy in the beautious mountains of northern California.

    I've been in solar hot water for 5 years with the Simple Drainback system. It's getting to the point where I know what I'm doing. Which means I have to move on to what I don't know how to do. And that is new construction with solar radiant with wood stove backup and sand bed storage. Banks turned me down for new construction last year, they didn't even want to consider new construction as appraised values were so low it made no sense to even try new construction. This has changed, and I'm now allowed to proceed.

    The challenge in new construction is to be cost effective without going green, and doubly difficult when adding green elements to the mix. The new codes required fire sprinklers, and the entire structure must be engineered. And, water and sewer tap, impact fees and other soft costs are simply nuts.

    Being a hot water guy, and seeing what I've seen, there is no doubt about my heating plan. I'm committed to solar thermal connecting to 16-24" sand bed storage plus an in-slab loop, with wood stove connection.

    I'm selecting evacuated tubes, no doubt. I compared btu output of tubes against flat plates over the winter in Kansas, and under many different conditions. I also checked into the fable that tubes don't shed snow. There is no doubt that: 1) Tubes are vastly superior in generating low light, windy, cloudy winter energy. On a sunny day, at high noon, flat plates and tubes reach parity. The minute those conditions aren't met, or if a wind kicks up, tubes produce more heat, period. I can denominate this, should any wish to see the research. Regarding tubes and failure to shed snow: it turns out to be a function of where they are located and how they are racked. Snow shed isn't the issue, racking is.

    I don't know a thing about wood stove/solar radiant production. I've done the work for others, and I hear love stories and warm fuzzy about the nice heat. I've felt the heat, and love the outcome. Sizing and construction of the wood stove loop is the hard part.

    For the envelope, I'm using Faswall block. These are an ICU made of wood fiber, cement and coal ash, manufactured in Oregon so freight won't be high. The ICU system should provide a very tight envelope. For the solar radiant side, I'm using the 2' of collector for 10' of floor space 'rule of thumb'. For the wood stove coil, I'm looking at www.hilkoil.com. For the heat exchange system, I'm using the Simple Drainback system. That system costs $1,900. That's a load side heat exchange system that's perfect for radiant, very easy to install and operate. For tubes, I'm using SunTask SR-30's, these cost $900 per set of 30.

    As for the production I can expect from the wood stove loop...this is a big question mark. My guess is I'll make 65-75% heating load with solar. Don't know what to expect from the wood stove loop.
  • russ
    Solar Fanatic
    • Jul 2009
    • 10360

    #2
    Solar for 65 to 75% of your heating load? You either have a very, very low heat load or a lot of tubes.

    2 foot of collector for 10 foot of floor space - do you mean square foot? Rules of thumb are generally questionable.

    The stove coil is a simple piece of stainless pipe in the fire? That system is really a bad way to go - farmer engineering for sure!

    You have a whole lot of wild assed guesses in place of engineering.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Comment

    • Jeff Morrow
      Junior Member
      • Oct 2012
      • 3

      #3
      SWAG- Scientific Wild Ass Guessers

      Originally posted by russ
      Solar for 65 to 75% of your heating load? You either have a very, very low heat load or a lot of tubes.

      2 foot of collector for 10 foot of floor space - do you mean square foot? Rules of thumb are generally questionable.

      The stove coil is a simple piece of stainless pipe in the fire? That system is really a bad way to go - farmer engineering for sure!

      You have a whole lot of wild assed guesses in place of engineering.
      Russ, let's go over the SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess)-

      Solar thermal radiant rules of thumb are useful, as are engineered numbers. I don't have faith in engineering numbers associated with evacuated tube collectors. I believe evacuated tube heat pipe production to be under-rated, by approximately 40%. I do have data for this, as well as a rational explanation. The SRCC rates collectors based on high noon irratiation. Tubes run well at hours other than high noon, flat plates do not. I ran flat plate verses evacuated tube experiments comparing btu output in winter, I found the winter production of tubes to be 40% under-rated. This makes sense given the high noon irradiation condition under which tubes and flat plates are rated. Thus, any engineered data on heating using evacuated tubes using SRCC ratings will, in my opinion, under-represent actual performance. I'm willing to build based on my SWAG.

      For 2,000 s.f. new construction, the 'two feet of collector for ten feet of floor' rule of thumb would suggest 400 s.f. of collectors. That's 8 sets of 30 tubes, which would be plumbed 4 per series. (A set of tubes is 50 s.f.) That's a bunch of btu when the sun is shining. Thus, I would opt for 6 sets rather than 8. Physically, each array would be 24 feet long (8' per set), and use about 5' of width. The distance between each array would be 9' to avoid shade from one touching the other. Storage is the issue. Here, the high mass storage production is a total WAG. I've been fortunate to bury sensors in sand bed storage sites, so we're working to gain data. As it stands, precious little operational data can be found on high mass storage. I have some numbers that show theoretically what the level of storage is. But, there is little by way of support for how things actually behave or feel. It's hard to engineer. As for the level of btu production of 6 sets of tubes, that is completely determinable by month, given climate zone, orientation and tilt. If my envelope is tight, this level of heat more than meet my projected btu heat loads in shoulder months, but likely will fail in December and January, and at times of prolonged storm. Thus, wood backup. Cost for solar...$5,400 for collectors, $1,900 for solar tank and $1,000 for buffer tank. Around $8,500 for the equipment, before applicable tax credits.

      The wood stove coil is a mystery. I've got no experience in this world, except with stoves having coils built in. And these wood stove with built-in coils send off copious amounts of hot water!

      To gain a building permit, I'll have to have a Title 24 study. There isn't enough data for solar/wood heating potential. In this case, you sometimes have to use "Bubu" engineering...

      Comment

      • russ
        Solar Fanatic
        • Jul 2009
        • 10360

        #4
        I tend to disagree with you on SRCC data and flat plate vs evacuated tube efficiency of dead noon. Have fun as it is your buck.

        Bubba engineering (rule of thumb) is not a good design tool. I mentioned WAGs - not SWAGs.

        Not much data on heat storage available? I have seen lots - all negative in small installations. Water is the only real possibility today. Not sure what 'high' mass storage might be.

        One reason there is not data available for some concepts is that they tend to be of the 'dead horse' variety.
        [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

        Comment

        • Jeff Morrow
          Junior Member
          • Oct 2012
          • 3

          #5
          Buba Engineering...Tubes verses Flat Plate Experiments Suggest Buba is Correct!

          Originally posted by russ
          I tend to disagree with you on SRCC data and flat plate vs evacuated tube efficiency of dead noon. Have fun as it is your buck.

          Bubba engineering (rule of thumb) is not a good design tool. I mentioned WAGs - not SWAGs.

          Not much data on heat storage available? I have seen lots - all negative in small installations. Water is the only real possibility today. Not sure what 'high' mass storage might be.

          One reason there is not data available for some concepts is that they tend to be of the 'dead horse' variety.
          Below you'll see results of one day's experiments where the temperature at the collector manifold of a single 4' by 10' flat plate collector (F.P.) is compared with the manifold output of a 30 tube collector. From a dollar cost perspective, both collectors cost the same. In this experiment, both the tube and the flat plate (F.P.)were connected to the same tank and pump. A hose splitter diverted water first to the flat plate for 5 minutes, and then a reading was taken. The flow would then be diverted to the evacuated tube and allowed to run for 5 minutes and another reading taken. The process was to run flat plates and tubes back and forth from the same tank, with the same pump and same flow rate. We used the same pump and same tank for both collectors. The two sat side by side, identical in orientation and pitch. Conditions for each were identical. The hose splitter was the unit that changed flow between the flat plate and evacuated tube.

          This is only part of the reason for my SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) that tubes are superior for radiant applications. Tubes operate earlier in the day and later in the day, and at higher temperatures than flat plates given identical flow and orientation. In this case, you'll see at 2:25 P.M. (October in Kansas) the tubes running at 123 F. 5 minutes later and using identical flow and tank, flat plates were at 102 F. Switching back and forth, the end of day operational efficiency of tubes started to shine. Late in the afternoon, in low sun, flat plates stopped adding heat. Tubes motored right along, continuing to produce. Same is true in the morning. Tubes start working earlier, and operated at higher temperatures with the exception of high noon, when the two types of collectors reach parity.

          TIME 2:25 2:30 2:35 2:40 2:45 2:50 2:55 3:00 3:05 3:10 3:15
          MANIFOLD 123° 102° 118° 104° 123° 104° 127° 107° 129° 129° 129°
          T UBE/FLAT-PLATE TUBE F.P. TUBE F.P. TUBE F.P. TUBE FP TUBE TUBE TUBE


          TIME 9:45 9:50
          MANIFOLD 68° 91°
          TUBE/FLAT-PLATE F.P. TUBE

          This data may not show up well in this format, my apologies. The goal in sharing this bit of buba engineering data is to provide evidence to my claim that reduction of array size when using evacuated tubes is reasonable.

          This btu output discrepancy is perfectly rational given the manner in which collectors are rated. Ratings are based on high noon irradiation. Ratings do not take into account entire day conditions. (Could this be a result of the SRCC board's composition being influenced by flat plate manufacturing's membership? Doesn't matter.) The point is: Buba engineering isn't all that far off, in this case. By the book engineering will fail to capture realities. I'll stick with Buba engineering and reduce collector size for my radiant application.

          Comment

          • russ
            Solar Fanatic
            • Jul 2009
            • 10360

            #6
            Like I said - ıt is your buck so have fun working on a WAG and some rather unusual assumptions.
            [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

            Comment

            • Mike90250
              Moderator
              • May 2009
              • 16020

              #7
              " The stove coil is a simple piece of stainless pipe in the fire? That system is really a bad way to go - farmer engineering for sure! "

              http://www.hilkoil.com/product.htm & http://www.therma-coil.com/description.htm both offer engineered coils that install into a firebox. I have one in my Masonry Heater.

              Properly installed, and fed water, and a pressure blow-off valve, they are supposed to be pretty good.

              Now if you found some pipe somewhere, and it does not look rusty, and you just slam it into the heater - that's Hillbilly Engineering, and might even work a while.

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              Comment

              • russ
                Solar Fanatic
                • Jul 2009
                • 10360

                #8
                I know quite well about the water heat pipes - look at the link - they even provide a hole saw and a pressure relief valve.

                There are good well designed units out there I fully agree.
                [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                Comment

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