Northern California Newbee

[J.P.M.]

Well, it's been several weeks and the promises given to me from PGE never materialized. So I called them back. After nearly 1.5 hrs on the phone, bouncing from person to person, I still don't have the NBC confusion sorted out. I found a disturbing comment, however, from the Tesla blog site. Apparently, the monthly NEM summary does NOT include the accumulating NBC charges and are only brought up at 'True-Up.' Can anyone confirm this?

I found I needed to dig into a lot of published CPUC and POCO stuff and expect no, or at least little voluntary help from the POCO in understanding all of it. But, after a lot of rooting around, Most of it is now clear, or at least more clear than before I started.

I also agree with Ampster (for once), the POCO is not trying to screw you, at least no more than the law allows. Doing so would mean they'd be caught by informed folks, and the cost/benefit just isn't worth it to them.

You'll need to dig into the mess in ways similar to what I and others have done. Start at the basics. Not doing so means your won't know enough details about what things/policies are and how they interact/influence things.

FWIW, One trick I learned and still practice: Back calculate a bill after you study up and believe you understand all that goes into how the POCO calculates it. When/if/after you can calculate the bill same as the POCO - to the penny, you'll know more about how your bill is calculated than when you stared. Do so a few times and you'll learn more. If you're like me, you'll gain some appreciation for how complicated billing is, and just how ignorant I (and maybe you) were/are, as well as how less than helpful my/your POCO can be in helping to understand all of the B.S.

Also, know that policies and rules change on a regular basis. I used the back calcing a bill method as a pointer to learn new stuff. I found that method helped me to zero in on billing policies and methods that affect me and helped make the task more manageable by not reading every document that the POCO or the CPUC puts out and focusing on what affected me first.

Lastly, for this thread, I haven't seen or maybe I missed any detailed explanation of NBC. I'll attempt a precis: Part of AB-327 (required reading) addressed the idea, rightly or wrongly, that most PV users duck out on some charges that ought to be shared by all users, including those who own PV systems. The bill's solution was to charge NEM 2.0 and subsequent PV users for those portions of the per kWh rate charges that come from 4 parts of what makes up some of the UDC rate (more required reading): The DRW bond charge, Public purpose programs, Nuclear decommissioning, and something called Competition Transition Charges. See the rate sheets the COUC makes your POCO publish (avail. on the net) for amounts of those charges/kWh , which change often.

Now, NEM cust. are charged for EVERY kWh of electrical energy that passes from the POCO, through the meter to the NEM user's home - EVERY kWh - NOT the net - but Every kWh that comes from the POCO - regardless of any net surplus or net use that happens due to a PV system. NBC is only affected by what crosses the meter coming into a home - NOT going out, or (use - generation).

So, say I use 40 kWh over a 24 hr. period, and say my PV system produces 30 kWh over the same period - not net after deductions for use, but total generation, meaning for that 24 hr. period I have a 40 - 30 = 10 kWh excess generation. But, say, because there are times when I'm using power when it's dark, and/or when my loads are in excess of what my PV generates, the POCO will be sending me power at some times even though my net excess for that 24 hr. period was 10 kWh. Now, say that what the POCO sends me (at say between 9 and 11 P.M. of that 24 hr. period) 6 kWh of electricity for various loads (A/C, TV, whatever). That 6 kW will generate NBC at a rate of something like $0.02/kWh or so or ~ $0.12 for that 2 hr. period. That I had a NET surplus of 10 kWh for that 24 hr. period of which the 9 - 11 P.M period is within has no effect on the NBC charges for that 9 - 11 P.M. period. I get wacked $0.12.

The only thing that matters in the NBC calc is that over some increment of time (probably15 minutes for most POCO's billing) the POCO sent me some electricity. the idea that I had some excess for the day, or billing period or year matters squat. The sum of all the electricity sent me - that is, any and all electrical energy that crossed my meter coming in for any period, summed over all those periods times the NBC rate for those periods is what the total NBC charges are, for any relevant period, be it one billing period or an annual trueup.

[Ampster]

I looked at my most recent bill and have attached page 3 which may clarify and correct what I wrote above. I am in my 5th month of my relevant period. I have accumulated $287.51 in NEM credits. I have also paid $43.05 in minimum delivery charges. My accumulated NBCs are $44.83.

As you can see from the lower right Explanation of Calculations (the box at the bottom) my YTD NEM charges (in my case a credit) are listed at the top of the box. Then in another column (circled) are the NBCs which are greater than the Minimum Delivery Charges leaving a balance at True-Up of $1.78 . That last line is titled YTD Estimated NEM Charges AT True-UP. I think it is not a complete label because it does not include the larger credit which I have acumulated above. The only clue from accounting custom is that they are in different columns. During the next 7 months until my true up, I expect my off peak usage to remain the same but my generation will drop and I will reduce the large credit close to zero and hopefully nothing is due at True-UP. Your mileage may vary but we are going into winter in which our generation will be lower.

In summary your bill will track two totals, one, your NEM charges and two, the net of your NBCs and your Minimum Delivery Charges.

[ziomeks]

I'm using my cellphone for this answer,not ideal for any of us. This is for Ampster. I believe that you have characterized your NEM summary incorrectly.

From all that I have read so far, the state mandated nbc, is comprised of four items that all must ppay. This item, as far as I know, is not the accumulated charges of energy used by your home. According to a pge spokeperson that tried to explain the nbc charges, this accumulation will be billed at true up and is checked at your smartmeter every 15 minutes. No where do I see name that calls out these charges, nor are they shown in the monthly bill.

According to another web site, for Tesla, at true up time he was hit with a near $200 add on not previously called out. I believe him hence my request for others who have gone through true up to confirm or deny this statement.

In the summary, again, how does it make sense to subtract monthly connection fee, from a nuclear declass. Fee and water board bond fee, etc. Somehow its not all adding up.

[Ampster]

I'm using my cellphone for this answer,not ideal for any of us. This is for Ampster. I believe that you have characterized your NEM summary incorrectly.

Which of my 8/23 posts are you referring to? With regard to Non Bypassable Charges, I agree there is a lot of confusion. I also agree posting from a phone is not ideal especially f you have not been able to print out the attachment I posted. Most of my last post was an attempt to walk the reader through page 3 of a NEM 2.0 PG&E bill. That explanation was specifically regarding a section titled, "Explanation of Calculations". The title of the page was Summary of NEM Year-To-Date (YTD) Charges. I would be happy to correct any misinformation.

From all that I have read so far, the state mandated nbc, is comprised of four items that all must ppay. This item, as far as I know, is not the accumulated charges of energy used by your home. According to a pge spokeperson that tried to explain the nbc charges, this accumulation will be billed at true up and is checked at your smartmeter every 15 minutes. No where do I see name that calls out these charges, nor are they shown in the monthly bill.

I have posted a copy of page 3 of my bill that clearly has a line item that reads, "Total State Mandated Non-Bypassable Charges 44.93. Please explain what you mean by, "No where do I see name that calls out these charges, nor are they shown on the monthly bill." Are we looking at the same page? Also when you say, "ppay" do you mean prepay or pay?

According to another web site, for Tesla, at true up time he was hit with a near $200 add on not previously called out. I believe him hence my request for others who have gone through true up to confirm or deny this statement.

Is this the thread you are referring to:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/2925989

In that post a member by the name of mblakele talks about his $170 surprise True-Up in 2018. He did not post a copy of his bill and the format may have changed since then. Is your bill different than the page I posted?
If that is not the correct thread, post a link or describe the thread title. I often read the teslamotorsclub.com forum and some of my information and speculation is drawn from knowledge on that site about PG&E billing practices and rates.

In the summary, again, how does it make sense to subtract monthly connection fee, from a nuclear declass. Fee and water board bond fee, etc. Somehow its not all adding up.

I was pleasantly surprised to see that. I hope it carries through to the True-Up final calculation. It does sound inconsistent with the policy. Since it is to my benefit that the Minimum Delivery Charges offset the NBSs I am not going to complain. I have no control over the MDCs but to some extent I can control how much I use when my solar is generating. Nevertheless the math on that page does agree with that calculation. (44.83 minus 43.05 does equal $1.78)

[ziomeks]

First of all, to AMPSTER and J.P.M., my sincerest thank you for hanging in there with me. As both of you have said or implied, you just gotta dig through the noise to find the real truth.

I would like to ask both of you and the general audience, to agree or disagree to the following statements to create a baseline of NBC's. From all that I have read and seen in my actual bills and the multitude of Internet respondents, the ELUSIVE NBC's are actually three (3) components as given by PGE. Other power arrangements, I think called CCA's have their own differences but I cannot comment to them as I do not have this situation. I'm PGE direct.

NBC #1
Minimum Delivery Charge Meaning: Calculation:
or PGE - Distribution Charge Number of days per
Electrical Minimum Delivery Charge All of these are really the same NBC. Some the Street Lingo - Connection Charge billing cycle * 0.32854 cents/Day
or monthly charge amount, some the Year to Date
Electric Monthly Charges accumulation.
or
Current Electric monthly charges

NBC #2
State Mandated Non By-passable Charge This Charge is composed of four(4) items Meaning: Calculation:
1. Public Purpose Programs PGE - All system users need to pay Number of KW/Hrs
2. Nuclear Decommissioning (share) these costs Imported * ~0.0185 cents/KW/Hrs
3. Competition Transition Charges Street Lingo - Mandatory Charges
4. DWR Bond

NBC #3
NBC Net Usage Adjustment This charge is the elusive "bucket" of Meaning: Calculation:
Energy charges, specifically called out PGE - As power is Imported (used) Number of KW/Hrs
in the NEM 2.0. a tariff is imposed on that Imported * ~0.03 cents/KW/Hrs
Import amount
Street Lingo - The hidden charge not
really discussed a lot but ends up
being the True-Up Killer

Again, my request for all those seeing this, is just to reveal just what the heck are all the NBC's from PGE. What say all of you? What am I missing? If we can sort of agree to this, then the next shoe falls. How they are used in the monthly billing. Does anyone know if the tariff's shown above are published? Where?

I also find it rather amusing that even when your bill spans two different months, the tariffs magically change for each month.

[ziomeks]

OH MY, I see the formatting went screwy, sorry about that ..........

[J.P.M.]

First of all, to AMPSTER and J.P.M., my sincerest thank you for hanging in there with me. As both of you have said or implied, you just gotta dig through the noise to find the real truth.

I would like to ask both of you and the general audience, to agree or disagree to the following statements to create a baseline of NBC's. From all that I have read and seen in my actual bills and the multitude of Internet respondents, the ELUSIVE NBC's are actually three (3) components as given by PGE. Other power arrangements, I think called CCA's have their own differences but I cannot comment to them as I do not have this situation. I'm PGE direct.

NBC #1
Minimum Delivery Charge Meaning: Calculation:
or PGE - Distribution Charge Number of days per
Electrical Minimum Delivery Charge All of these are really the same NBC. Some the Street Lingo - Connection Charge billing cycle * 0.32854 cents/Day
or monthly charge amount, some the Year to Date
Electric Monthly Charges accumulation.
or
Current Electric monthly charges

NBC #2
State Mandated Non By-passable Charge This Charge is composed of four(4) items Meaning: Calculation:
1. Public Purpose Programs PGE - All system users need to pay Number of KW/Hrs
2. Nuclear Decommissioning (share) these costs Imported * ~0.0185 cents/KW/Hrs
3. Competition Transition Charges Street Lingo - Mandatory Charges
4. DWR Bond

NBC #3
NBC Net Usage Adjustment This charge is the elusive "bucket" of Meaning: Calculation:
Energy charges, specifically called out PGE - As power is Imported (used) Number of KW/Hrs
in the NEM 2.0. a tariff is imposed on that Imported * ~0.03 cents/KW/Hrs
Import amount
Street Lingo - The hidden charge not
really discussed a lot but ends up
being the True-Up Killer

Again, my request for all those seeing this, is just to reveal just what the heck are all the NBC's from PGE. What say all of you? What am I missing? If we can sort of agree to this, then the next shoe falls. How they are used in the monthly billing. Does anyone know if the tariff's shown above are published? Where?

I also find it rather amusing that even when your bill spans two different months, the tariffs magically change for each month.

For anything I wrote that you found useful, you're welcome.

To your question: "What am I missing ?". Answer, IMO, a lot of the basics. As I suggested and continue to suggest, Educate yourself first. Start with your bill and your POCO rate sheets and without assuming you know where and how it all happens, try to get the same usage and $$ number that the POCO does. Not a one page task, but it's the best way I've found to educate myself on all this stuff, which, FWIW, seems way too and very unnecessarily complicated to me, but it is what it is so I deal with the turd pile like I find it. Without some friendly and professional persistence on your part, expect the POCO to be less than helpful at explanations.

If you want a one post/paragraph answer to what NBC is and it's origins, I'm not well versed enough to provide it beyond what I've already written. Welcome to fewer illusions.

Your best tools for a more thorough understanding of NBC will be CPUC webpages, other published data and the rate sheets from your POCO.

Bottom line for any of what I may think, since you're asking: You need more understanding of the basics. You'll begin to get that better and deeper understanding from those docs. Also, read AB327 and stop when you get to a term you don't understand. Research it and then go back to where you left off. Without understanding the basics, your task in attempted understanding of NBC and other stuff is somewhat analogous to trying to get into an elevator that's already gone up 5 ft.

As I wrote, NBC is charged on every kWh that passes through your electric meter from the POCO with no account or concern for what you send back to the POCO. It's per kWh calculated rate is composed of 4 components of the UDC portion of your per kWh electric rate. From what you write, sounds (reads) to me like most of the rest of what you think matters with respect to NBC comes from your lack of understanding of how POCO billing and policy interpretation of CPUC rules and mandates works.

BTW: rates and tariffs change all the time, several times/yr., with additional minor tweaks happening all the time as parts of what make up your bill are changed by several factors. Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player and not a very good one at reading sheet music sometimes.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Ampster]

I would like to ask both of you and the general audience, to agree or disagree to the following statements to create a baseline of NBC's. From all that I have read and seen in my actual bills and the multitude of Internet respondents, the ELUSIVE NBC's are actually three (3) components as given by PGE. Other power arrangements, I think called CCA's have their own differences but I cannot comment to them as I do not have this situation. I'm PGE direct.

I disagree that NBCs are three components. NBCs are actually only one component and they only show up on NEM 2.0 customer's bills. NEM 1.0 customers and customers without a NEM agreement do not have them. To increase common understanding and reduce ambiguity I find it easier to use PG&Es nomenclature to describe components of their bill.

NBC #1
Minimum Delivery Charge Meaning: Calculation:
or PGE - Distribution Charge Number of days per
Electrical Minimum Delivery Charge All of these are really the same NBC. .......

No, this is not the same as NBC. The Minimum Delivery Charges (MDC) is calculated based on the number of days times the rate per day. Thus it is easily estimated from one month to the other. It applies to all customer rate plans regardless of NEM agreement or no NEM agreement.

NBC #2
State Mandated Non By-passable Charge This Charge is composed of four(4) items Meaning: Calculation:
1. Public Purpose Programs PGE - All system users need to pay Number of KW/Hrs
2. Nuclear Decommissioning (share) these costs Imported * ~0.0185 cents/KW/Hrs
3. Competition Transition Charges Street Lingo - Mandatory Charges
4. DWR Bond

This in the one and only Non Bypassable Charge (NBC) These are calculated based on the net consumption during any 15 minute interval. The details are not shown but I can guess what those kWhrs might be by my patterns of usage when my solar is not generating or when I am consuming more than my solar is producing. The rate for NBCs is about $0.025 per kWh and in my case probably amounts to 400 kWhrs of consumption.

There is some adjustment to this amount and therefore the accumulated amount is not easily reconciled. You call this NBC #3 but I see it as a subset of NBC The amount of that discrepancy is trivial on my bill so I am not concerned.

NBC #3
NBC Net Usage Adjustment This charge is the elusive "bucket" of Meaning: Calculation:
Energy charges, specifically called out PGE - As power is Imported (used) Number of KW/Hrs
in the NEM 2.0. a tariff is imposed on that Imported * ~0.03 cents/KW/Hrs
Import amount
Street Lingo - The hidden charge not
really discussed a lot but ends up
being the True-Up Killer

As mentioned above this is a subset of NBCs and is trivial.I don't think it is necessarily a true up killer but i guess it depends on your consumption. If you are basing your characterization of it as a "true up killer" on the year old post on the Tesla forum, you should know that the poster subsequently posted an update. He says the bill is clearer after that surprise last year. Perhaps the surprise won't be big this year but I may maintain a small credit so I don't get a surprise.

Again, my request for all those seeing this, is just to reveal just what the heck are all the NBC's from PGE. What say all of you? What am I missing? If we can sort of agree to this, then the next shoe falls. How they are used in the monthly billing. Does anyone know if the tariff's shown above are published? Where?

I am not defending PG&E, but I think my bill is understandable. It has taken some time and effort as J.P.M. stated above. I don't know what you mean by, "all the NBC's from PG&E" because I only have one line item labeled NBCs. Show me where this shows up on your bill or on the attachment I posted?
Yes, the tarrifs are published. It takes some searching but they are there. I would link to my tariff but it is an EV rate and has different time periods and rates so it wouldn't do you any good. Besides, it is no longer available to others that are not already using it. I don't recall what rate you are on but search for your rate on the PG&E site. Including tariff in your search string might help.

I also find it rather amusing that even when your bill spans two different months, the tariffs magically change for each month.

No magic. The latest tarriff approved by the CPUC was effective 7/1 and approved by the CPUC earlier in the year. I believe the earlier tarriff had been in effect since 2/1. Of course there was also a seasonal change from winter to summer rates on 6/1 and there will be one from summer to winter on 11/1

The charges you don't mention above and which are the biggest component of my bill are Net Energy Metering (NEM) charges. These are calculated monthly and the balance (negative or positive) is accumulated in a bucket called NEM Charges Before Taxes. The details are calculated per rate period and the math checks out for me. It is simply the net energy used or generated during each rate period. They are currently a credit on my bill, but I am going into winter where that credit will be eroded by less generation. I track kWhs and dollars by each of those periods going forward so I can manage my usage to get to the sweet spot at true up.

To summarize, there are two totals described as NEM that I am tracking for True-Up. The big one is NEM charges/credit based on kWhrs consumed/generated. The little one is the net of MDC and NBC. The later is ambigiously also described as NEM or True-Up.

[Ampster]

For what it is worth, the poster on the Tesla Forum got his True-Up and there was no surprise this year except taxes. Everything else tracked according to his spreadsheet.

[ziomeks]

See the attached page of my bill:

I would like to go back to the comments for what I called the NBC #3. You say "As mentioned above this is a subset of NBCs and is trivial." Where are the details of this item? It just magically appears, has no explanation I can find anywhere and How is it calculated? I just took a stab at it. I remember someone saying that their should be some underlying data in the bill to support this charge. I don't see it. As you can tell, I don't like surprises. You just can't make up the rules as you go along.

[Ampster]

I can see in your case the two NBC charges are greater than mine. You are on a different rate than me but I dont think that should affect the two NBC charges.

Until PG&E provides the consumption number that drives the NBC charges you are going to have to estimate it yourself. Take a look at your daily consumption and try to estimate how much is driving the NBC charges. Once you figure it out the only way to reduce NBCs is to adjust your usage that is creating them. I have invested in some tools that give me that information so I dont have to download my Green Button data and enter 15 minute consumption data for every interval that it is positive. There are some useful charts of daily consumption on the pge.com website.

If you are expecting a large payment from the NEM credit that is going to be a big surprise to you at True-Up if you havent figured that out already. This is because you are only going to get $0.04 per kWhr at True-Up and that will be a big haircut. Assuming your NEM credit of $213.67 is based on 855 kWhs (from upper right corner of your statement) then at $0.04 at True up it will get reduced to $34 in cash to you.

[J.P.M.]

I can see in your case the two NBC charges are greater than mine. You are on a different rate than me but I dont think that should affect the two NBC charges.

Until PG&E provides the consumption number that drives the NBC charges you are going to have to estimate it yourself. Take a look at your daily consumption and try to estimate how much is driving the NBC charges. Once you figure it out the only way to reduce NBCs is to adjust your usage that is creating them. I have invested in some tools that give me that information so I dont have to download my Green Button data and enter 15 minute consumption data for every interval that it is positive. There are some useful charts of daily consumption on the pge.com website.

If you are expecting a large payment from the NEM credit that is going to be a big surprise to you at True-Up if you havent figured that out already. This is because you are only going to get $0.04 per kWhr at True-Up and that will be a big haircut. Assuming your NEM credit of $213.67 is based on 855 kWhs (from upper right corner of your statement) then at $0.04 at True up it will get reduced to $34 in cash to you.

I'm on NEM 1.0 so NBC doesn't affect me, but if it did, I can and do easily track how many NBC kWh I'd be accumulating from my POCO meter which tracks kWhs sent to the POCO and kWh received from the POCO. I'd pay NBC on kWh I've received from the POCO. At least that's how it works for me. OP: more homework - learn how nyour meter works and what information it provides. I bet yours is like mine.

[ziomeks]

The monthly bill does show ebb and flow of power into and out of the home. However, to get the real consumption, you need to match up the POCO data with your generation Data. I use an excel spread sheet to import the POCO data on an hourly basis and my SolarEDGE generation in 15 min increments. Yes there will be some inaccuracy, but as long as I'm within 10% I can accept that. So far so good.

Am I expecting to make any money with my solar setup? NO. I just want to break even at true up. As this is my first year (cycle) of performance capture, knowing the future is not an option. I'll just have to experience it. My eyes are wide open and I want to track it all. While in this mode, I don't take very kindly to surprises. (think true-up)

I have to say its very disconcerting that when your paying attention, the POCO feels that they have no obligation to explain the charges they level upon us. For example the NBC Net Usage Adjustment. Remember, I've tried several times with no success.

[Ampster]

With regard to the page you posted, have you checked the math on how they are accumulated? It appears that the Line in the lower right of page 3 entitled Total State Mandated Non-Bypassable Charges is only the accumulated total of just the NBCs from each statement. That total does not include the NBC usage adjustment that shows on page 5, Details of NEM Charges. That is why I called it trivial because it is not included in the number that will be used at True-Up. That NBC usage adjustment is offset by generation so that is another reason I am not concerned with it. Obviously that could shift when my generation goes down in the winter. I see an analogy to flying a plane in cloudy weather when your destination is beyond a mountain range. You have to have good navigation or you will waste lot of fuel flying around the clouds to see if you are high enough to get over the mountains.

The reason I keep referring back to page 3 is it contains the numbers that apparently are going to affect my True-Up.
One is the Total of my NEM Charges before Taxes which is -$287.51
Two is the YTD Estimated NEM Charges at True-Up which is $1.78. Note, this is only the total of my accumulated NBCs ($44.83) less my accumulated MDCs ($43.05)

As I explained earlier these are the two numbers that are important to me and I track them in order to manage or shift my consumption to get to break even. At this point in time I am ahead of the game but I know that I am going into winter with less generation from the sun and lower rates for that generation. My strategy is not to chase down every detail but understand which items will affect my True-Up so that I can accomplish my goal of break even.

I would be happy to continue this dialogue because it has helped me better understand how my bill works under NEM 2.0. I am not interested in circling back and discussing every detail especially if that detail has no bearing on a goal of break even at the end of the year. I am however interested in discussing strategy going forward about how to maximize the return on a solar system with PG&E on NEM 2.0. My situation is unique because I have two EVs and a heat pump water heater all of which allow me to shift the usage to get to what I call the sweet spot at True-Up.

By way of background, I used to live in Southern California in a home with solar panels under NEM 1.0. Because there were no NBCs I shifted my loads to consume more kWhrs than I generated but I also ran a negative NEM dollar balance. That was truly a sweet spot since it gave me over a megaWhr of energy to help improve my ROI. Then a year or two later the new tariffs included the Minumum Delivery Charges and, ROI went down slightly but it still only cost me only pennies to charge my cars and heat my water. I now have different challenges under NEM 2.0.