Aloha from a Solar Newbie in Hawaii

[azdave]

Keeping this station operable in a disaster is a matter of life and death as it is the only station in the state of Hawaii with the intercontinental HF data links which would be our only means of communications in a large-scale disaster.

If that is true, why is an individual homeowner taking on such a critical responsibility for the entire state of Hawaii? Seems like if it were that important they would be approving what it takes to build the backup system and providing the funding too.

[J.P.M.]

I said BURY the propane tank so it is not visible and takes no lawn.

You have not answered the question about how power is consumed or if you can reduce it. You
do not find room for a generator setup, and do not have space or $ for a sufficiently large off grid
panel/battery system, so you cannot solve your problem until you at least move.
good luck,
Bruce Roe

I would think if the OP didn't have room for an above ground tank, an underground tank would also be out.

Besides, an underground tank for storage of pressurized petroleum products may be very difficult to pull off for a lot of reasons, beginning with municipal codes that recognize such necessary design requirements that are different and more involved than those of above ground storage tanks. It can be done - I've done it - it ain't your mother's storage tank - and I doubt anyone would want to pay for it.

Too bad, as propane may be part of the solution.

I do agree with you that it seems the OP hasn't done, or at least not identified here, the 1st and essential step, that is, to identify and quantify/estimate the duty (loads and duration) for the application, and the essential, that is, minimum load required to get by in an emergency.

I would offer that the 1,000 kWh/month suggested in the OP's opening post would require an off grid PV system that's a lot larger than the OP's apparently limited real estate will allow. A 400W WECS won't add much or get very far in meeting that demand either.

I'd respectfully suggest to the OP: Rather than stumble through this as you have stated, if you first figure out how to trim your loads to a bare minimum to accomplish your goals, and then get informed about the real possibilities, and equally importantly, the real and practical limitations of alternate energy you may see that your situation may be better met with less reliance on things you have limited knowledge of.

[WH6FQE]

azdave,

I can tell from that comment that you clearly are not a ham radio operator and do not understand how amateur radio is used in emergency communications in disasters when there is no other form of traditional communications.

Landline telephones, the internet, cellular, the police/fire/ems radio systems all rely on a delicate infrastructure that is commonly destroyed and unusable in a disaster. Ham radios are how communications are carried out for the initial phase of disaster recovery while the government attempts to restore those infrastructures to get traditional communications methods back online.

That essential radio communications depends on "individual homeowners" as you say, who are licensed amateur radio operators who volunteer our time and equipment to assist our commmunities in their time of need. ARES & RACES take care of local communications for the city, state, and federal government agencies over VHF & UHF frequencies to coordinate rescue and recovery operations, and organizations like RRI and NTS handle the long-range communications needs over HF radio frequencies.

Its all part of being a good neighbor and citizen that ham radio operators take very seriously

[WH6FQE]

WalMart would not ship the dual-fuel generators to Hawaii, they canceled my order. I also ordered them through Amazon which the order was also canceled on me. I was able to order them from Home Depot. Let's see if they will actually deliver them or not.

[bcroe]

Thanks for justifying HAM radio, that these amateurs should be allowed to keep their precious
frequency allocations, and even do things like erect antennas. My image is that they can get
things working when nothing is working (where the heck is SUNKING?). That means more than
appliance operators, some numbers and hands on hardware.

The phone sys might be tougher than you think. Yes cells and the outlying antenna installs may
fade, but I have monitored land line central offices that never dropped a call through NJ floods,
CA earthquakes, Y2K, and a few other things. Bruce Roe

[sdold]

azdave,

I can tell from that comment that you clearly are not a ham radio operator and do not understand how amateur radio is used in emergency communications in disasters when there is no other form of traditional communications.

Ease up there, been a ham 46 years and professionally in public safety radio and emcomm for over 40, and I had the same question as azdave. With hundreds if not thousands of HF stations in Hawaii, it's reasonable to wonder (and question) why your station is the ONLY STATION in the state of Hawaii able to provide communications in a large-scale disaster (your words) and why that important function is relegated to one individual with modest means and technical ability.

[WH6FQE]

Thanks for justifying HAM radio, that these amateurs should be allowed to keep their precious
frequency allocations, and even do things like erect antennas. My image is that they can get
things working when nothing is working (where the heck is SUNKING?). That means more than
appliance operators, some numbers and hands on hardware.

The phone sys might be tougher than you think. Yes cells and the outlying antenna installs may
fade, but I have monitored land line central offices that never dropped a call through NJ floods,
CA earthquakes, Y2K, and a few other things. Bruce Roe

Remember, we are in Hawaii, with an undersea cable between us and the mainland US. It can easily be taken out in a major disaster. Even in minor disasters we have already had multiple situations where the phone system was completely useless because it was overloaded with everyone and their brother trying to call 911 that no one could get through.

Even satellite phones do not work in a large-scale disaster as they recently found out the hard way in Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria. The satellites can only handle a very limited number of calls at a time, and are easily overloaded.

[WH6FQE]

Ease up there, been a ham 46 years and professionally in public safety radio and emcomm for over 40, and I had the same question as azdave. With hundreds if not thousands of HF stations in Hawaii, it's reasonable to wonder (and question) why your station is the ONLY STATION in the state of Hawaii able to provide communications in a large-scale disaster (your words) and why that important function is relegated to one individual with modest means and technical ability.

Well, to answer your question, apparently no one else in the state of Hawaii is interested in handling message traffic. I am the only traffic handler in the entire state of Hawaii. Just because there are other ham radio stations here does not mean they are willing or even capable of being a traffic station.

I am responsible for routing and delivery of all message traffic through the Radio Relay International and National Traffic System's Digital Traffic Network for Hawaii and the Pacific Region from French Polynesia to the Philippines. I also route messages bound for Oceania down to my counterpart in Australia for delivery down there in their area.

I wish other hams here would help out and handle some of the message traffic that comes through Hawaii, it would take a huge load off of me, but so far, not a single one has stepped forward.

[Ampster]

........
Its all part of being a good neighbor and citizen that ham radio operators take very seriously

We are lucky to have people like you.

[sdold]

I am the only traffic handler in the entire state of Hawaii. Just because there are other ham radio stations here does not mean they are willing or even capable of being a traffic station.

Makes sense now, thanks. I understand the difficulty of getting hams to volunteer for things like this. At California OES we have ham employees and in-house and mobile HF stations ready to go, but these hams are paid and the equipment is purchased by the state, so it's a little different. Does Hawaii have anything like that? Agree with Ampster BTW ^^^

[solar pete]

Hi All,

I just find it hard to believe that there is not a warehouse somewhere in Hawaii thats full of solar panels battery's and inverters, CC's you need to make this happen, surely if you called the biggest solar installer in Hawaii and explained your situation they would be able to point you in the right direction. It seems Sunking is busy with a new business venture but I am sure he will help you design a system that will meet your needs.

Seriously I suggest the OP calls the biggest privately owned solar installer in Hawaii, so not vivint or sunrun or any of those clowns a real electrical business, explain your situation as you have here and I am sure they will be able to help you, let me know how you go, cheers.

[WH6FQE]

We are lucky to have people like you.

Thank you, I am happy to be of service and do my part.

[WH6FQE]

Makes sense now, thanks. I understand the difficulty of getting hams to volunteer for things like this. At California OES we have ham employees and in-house and mobile HF stations ready to go, but these hams are paid and the equipment is purchased by the state, so it's a little different. Does Hawaii have anything like that? Agree with Ampster BTW ^^^

We do have hams that are paid by the state for emergency comms, they are the idiots who designed the VHF/UHF internet linked repeater system which the repeaters do not even have backup power except for one of them, and that one is not automatic switching, someone has to drive up the mountain and crank up the generator to power that repeater back up.

As for the HF side, they completely ignore the amature side of it and are only concerned with their new SHARES toys from the DHS. Unfortunately traffic from evac shelters and such are not allowed to go out over that system so they rely on the amateur side. They even got rid of the microwave linking between the islands and opted for an internet based repeater linking system, which fails at least once a week even when we do not have a disaster, lol.

Hawaii is a joke when it comes to disaster preparedness. We are in for a world of hurt and a rude awakening when the next big disaster visits us.

[jflorey2]

I still have strict limits on my antennas, but they are working with me on them now. We are also working with other HOA's on the island to teach them about the importance of amateur radio operators and their need for antennas to try to get other HOA's to loosen up antenna restrictions here, which we are starting to have some success with several of them.

Good to hear that you were successful.

I don't know what your antennas look like, but if they shadow your roof, solar won't work very well. (And yes, even if they only shadow a little of your roof. Any crystalline panel loses most of its output if even a fraction of it is shaded.) You can get around that to some degree with things like DC optimizers, but that won't restore capacity, just make the remaining (unshaded) strings work better.

If that's the case you would probably be better off installing on a neighbor's roof and using the DC from them. Or (again) installing a generator.

Don't get me wrong, I think solar is great. I have a 10kW system on my house and two other arrays (built as shade structures) that I play with. And I currently have two battery systems - a LiFePO4 backup system for the house and an external second-life EV battery system for load shifting. But I've made a lot of the mistakes that are common with new solar users over the past 20 years and you look like you're headed down the same road. I can almost see the first problems you will have, and can even see how your seemingly good decisions will lead you right into those problems.

As others have said, start with a realistic load estimate. Get a power monitor, plug everything essential into it, and run for a day with a traffic load similar to what a disaster would see. Use that as your baseline. That's the most important starting point. And if your minimum load is really 1300 watts average then solar's just not going to work without a huge (and costly) system. But if it's 400 watts overnight and 1000 watts during the day? That might work - IF you can get a open-sky mount for your solar array, and you have a generator as backup.

Some other ideas - pluggable hybrids are basically generators and batteries on wheels. A Prius Prime (on sale in Hawaii; I checked) will give you a 9kwhr battery and ~1000 watts for days via a 12V inverter. And you can stockpile gasoline for at least medium amounts of time (12 months or so.) And when you're not using them for running your setup during a disaster they are pretty useful for other things (like getting you to work.)

Also you are going to want to see how all the EMI from the solar stuff interferes with your system. Unfortunately solar arrays are pretty good antennas for the crud that gets back onto the array wiring from the MPPT.

[azdave]

azdave,
I can tell from that comment that you clearly are not a ham radio operator...

Clearly, but I'll go silent now.

KC7GET 73's