Hello from Africa

[Living Large]

Hmmm!! this is going to take longer than expected, the Victron boys would like very specific energy usage due to the high cost of the system - so going to take longer than expected

To give you some perspective, I recently designed an off grid system for 7kwh per day, with LIPO4 batteries and 3.2 sun hours worst case. It was about $28k to $30KUS including a backup generator. The LIPO4 were chosen out of desire to limit generator run-time in winter. Some people get excited by claims of cycles - personally, without hard evidence, I found other variables including charge time and maintenance to be important as well. Your mileage may vary.

As you were told, the first step is a very accurate estimate of your needs. I believe this was covered a few days ago.

[DanKegel]

LIPO4 were chosen out of desire to limit generator run-time in winter. Some people get excited by claims of cycles - personally, without hard evidence, I found other variables including charge time and maintenance to be important as well.

What were the warranties and specs on that system (battery DOD, warrantied lifetime)?

Got any numbers to share on how long batteries actually last, in your experience?

[Living Large]

What were the warranties and specs on that system (battery DOD, warrantied lifetime)?

Got any numbers to share on how long batteries actually last, in your experience?

I was planning for a usable range of 20% SOC to 90% SOC, with BMS, bottom balancing and LVD - as discussed in a LIPO4 thread on this site. I don't have a system, so no, I have no numbers for you. I didn't actually care too much about warrranties and predicted cycles - beyond staying within a range that resulted in over 1000 cycles. I didn't want to listen to a generator droning on for hours, and then maintaining said generator 2x as often as I might using different batteries. I am willing to pay a premium to avoid that in battery cost - overall cost was not the principal concern as it is with some users. As you say, my numbers may be off a bit - this was a few months ago. I have since focused on finding a property with power to avoid all this. To be clear - I have zero experience - just the results of research and getting advice here. The best advice I believe I have heard was not to go solar unless I didn't have a choice.

[Sunking]

Legit don't go for Lithoum batteries, especially the Bosch batteries. For 1/3 the cost get FLA batteries, they last just as long, and do not require a lot of expensive BMS equipment that is likely to destroy the batteries if there is a malfunction. Lithium batteries are not ready for solar. Only people who should try it are those with a lot of experience with them and know exactly what they are doing. Whatever you do if you go with Lithium you would deeply regret sizing them to 50% DOD per day. That would mean spending about a month or more out of each year dark and without power waiting for the sun to come out and recharge your batteries.

[DanKegel]

The supplier Legit mentioned also has FLA batteries:

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-OPzS-batteries-EN.pdf

I'm sure they'll consider both.

Looking forward to hearing Legit's detailed energy needs.

[Legit]

Legit don't go for Lithoum batteries, especially the Bosch batteries. For 1/3 the cost get FLA batteries, they last just as long, and do not require a lot of expensive BMS equipment that is likely to destroy the batteries if there is a malfunction. Lithium batteries are not ready for solar. Only people who should try it are those with a lot of experience with them and know exactly what they are doing. Whatever you do if you go with Lithium you would deeply regret sizing them to 50% DOD per day. That would mean spending about a month or more out of each year dark and without power waiting for the sun to come out and recharge your batteries.

Will have a few battery questions for you when the time is right SK - a quick one, what does FLA stand for?

[Legit]

The supplier Legit mentioned also has FLA batteries:

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-OPzS-batteries-EN.pdf

I'm sure they'll consider both.

Looking forward to hearing Legit's detailed energy needs.

Working on it,thks

[Legit]

Will have a few battery questions for you when the time is right SK - a quick one, what does FLA stand for?

Sk, thought I would google the meaning :

Urban Dictionary: FLA

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FLA

Urban Dictionary
Top Definition. fla. verb: sexual intercourse noun: an attractive person. A slang expression used in Cork city, Ireland. Also spelt flah. I buys you chips and flas you ...


ha ha , now i'm totally confused!!

[russ]

sk, thought i would google the meaning :

Urban dictionary: Fla
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fla
urban dictionary
top definition. Fla. Verb: Sexual intercourse noun: An attractive person. A slang expression used in cork city, ireland. Also spelt flah. I buys you chips and flas you ...


Ha ha , now i'm totally confused!!

lol!

[SunEagle]

Sk, thought I would google the meaning :

Urban Dictionary: FLA

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FLA

Urban Dictionary
Top Definition. fla. verb: sexual intercourse noun: an attractive person. A slang expression used in Cork city, Ireland. Also spelt flah. I buys you chips and flas you ...


ha ha , now i'm totally confused!!

Wow. Too funny.

If you haven't gotten your answer yet FLA = "Flooded Lead Acid" battery.

[Legit]

Ok, got some feedback from the Victron boys - as advised on the forum, going off the grid is not for sissy's, quote received from only one of the major solar players in our country, granted, shopping around could save a few bucks, but, as these suppliers claim, their equipment is tried and tested - :

AC Lights........................................x 3 @.....7w x 16hrs x 7d/p/week =.. 336wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge = ........0w
AC ADSL Router...............................x 1 @.....6w x 24hrs x 7d/p/week =...144wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge = ........0w
AC TV/Decoder.................................x 1 @ 110w x 12hrs x 7d/p/week =.1320wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =.........0w
AC TV/Deoder(Sleep)........................x 1 @.....6w x 24hrs x 7d/p/week =...144wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =..........0w
AC Apple Laptop & Charger................x 1 @...16w x 16hrs x 7d/p/week =...256wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =..........0w
AC Apple Mobile & Charger................x 2 @.....7w x..3hrs x 7d/p/week =.....42wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =..........0w
AC Cannon Scanner/Printer................x 1 @....14w x..1hrs x 7d/p/week =....14wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =........30w
AC Cannon Scan/Printer(Sleep)..........x 1 @... 0,5w x 24hrs x 7d/p/week =...12wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =......... 0w
AC HP Laser Jet Printer......................x 1 @...400w x..1hrs x 7d/p/week =..400wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =.......764w
AC HP Laser Jet Printer(Sleep)............x 1 @....0,4w x 24hrs x 7d/p/week =..9,6wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =......... 0w
AC Bose 12v Portable Sound System....x 1 @.....9w x 10hrs x 7d/p/week =...90wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =......... 0w
.................................................. .................................................. .....2768wh/p/day Consumption - Appliance Start Up /Surge =.......794w


Option 1........Victron pricing for Off-Grid with 2 x Full days energy back-up

Costing of Solar Equipment.........................Qty..........Cos t................Total(SA Rands Excl. VAT)
Solarworld 24v/250w Solar Panels.................4.......3,063.00........... .....12,252.00.................................... ........................
Blue Solar MPPT 150/70(12/24/36/48V-70A....1.......8,335.00.................8,335.00.. .................................................. ........
12V/220ah AGM Deep Cycle Batteries............4.......4,980.00............. ...19,920.00...(220 x 4 div 2 = 440ah x 12 = 5,280wh)
MultiPlus Compact 24/1600-16.....................1......13,419.00........... .....13,419.00.................................... ........................
MEGA-Fuse 100A/32V..................................2..........10 5.00....................210.00.................... ........................................
Fuse Holder foe MEGA-Fuse..........................1..........405.00... .................405.00........................... .................................
Precision Battery Monitor BMV-700................1.......1,780.00............... ..1,780.00........................................ ....................
.................................................. .......................................Total....56 ,321.00



Option 2........Victron pricing for partially Off-Grid with 1 x Full days energy back-up

Everything same as above - subtract 2 x Batteries from the system.........46,361.00
Price of Generator Yamaha 2,800 I Inverter(Silent Petrol)........................8,500.00
.................................................. ...................................Total.........5 4,821.00


Notes
The supplier has pointed out that FLA batteries are a lot cheaper but a lot more maintance is required on FLA batteries? - so they very seldom sell a setup using the FLA batteries(comments on this argument)
The above is costly, but I think i need to do a costing of a solar setup for a small household and then follow this up with a monthly electricity bill, this will give an indication to the viability of the setup.

The batteries account for 35% of the total cost of the Option 1 Off-Grid System, and this is a very small system.
So to go Off-Grid for a small household would the % of the batteries costs not climb to above 50% of total costs?
Eiiish, wanted to mention a point, on 2nd thoughts will leave it for last.

Thanks guys for your comments.

[Legit]

1 x $(US Dollar) = 12,12 SA Rands

[Legit]

Have had a chat to the Victron boys, who have this to say :

To make a off grid system sort of near viable you need to cut daily energy wh consumption to max. 19,000wh per day.

Our kids have left the nest, so only me the wife at home - we could manage this but will need a total lifestyle change, i.e. the nature with off the grid living is, you go around checking that lights are not left on and always consider how much energy appliances use ect. - shooo!!! not sure if we would be up to this at retirement age.

The Victron guys take is that going completely off the grid for a household that uses more than 19,000wh p/day is not viable and a waste of money and time.

All this has been mentioned by guys on this forum, so heads up there.

The Victron guys also estimate that the batteries in a solar off grid system account for about 40% of the total costs involved, with this in mind SK, if you are reading this, how long would you say we have to go before there is any significant improvements(reduced costs) in harnessing extra energy using batteries.

[Living Large]

Have had a chat to the Victron boys, who have this to say :

To make a off grid system sort of near viable you need to cut daily energy wh consumption to max. 19,000wh per day.

Our kids have left the nest, so only me the wife at home - we could manage this but will need a total lifestyle change, i.e. the nature with off the grid living is, you go around checking that lights are not left on and always consider how much energy appliances use ect. - shooo!!! not sure if we would be up to this at retirement age.

The Victron guys take is that going completely off the grid for a household that uses more than 19,000wh p/day is not viable and a waste of money and time.

All this has been mentioned by guys on this forum, so heads up there.

The Victron guys also estimate that the batteries in a solar off grid system account for about 40% of the total costs involved, with this in mind SK, if you are reading this, how long would you say we have to go before there is any significant improvements(reduced costs) in harnessing extra energy using batteries.

The energy budget you posted is about 2,700Wh per day, I believe, but only listed lights, computer equipment and audio. What is your total daily use? I haven't seen where you got over 10,000Wh, let alone 19,000.

I'm confused. The systems you had quoted are a small fraction of the capacity of what it now sounds you need.

Edit Looking back over your posts, there is a divergence of the goals of being grid independent and having a small system to make due during outages. It looks like you have discovered that off-grid with your amount of usage is not viable - so the question is would you proceed with a small system to get through shorter outages. Perhaps that is what the budget above represents. It sounds like you don't want to go that route either, and the exercise may have come to an end. That's the importance of doing a budget and looking at if you can reduce demand.

[Razer0]

Hi Legit and everyone else.

While you're poring hopefully over future technology upgrades to batteries, I'm down in Durban riding waves (just kidding, I'm too sissy to surf night-time hours!)

I've been reading this thread with avid interest.

I am a trade-tested electrician and focus my efforts domestically as well as industrially. I have only just begun to immerse myself into the solar power avenue that we so abundantly have here on Earth, particularly blessed with Sun (relatively high if you discard living in the desert as comfortable for us city boys) in our parts of the beautiful world.

Just recently I have had a British citizen living nearby that WANTS to go off grid. Where to start...where to start? I know the basics of any solar panel setup:

Solar panels. Charge Controller. Batteries. Inverter.

This forum is where I complete the loose ends Thanks guys, and Legit for asking question. I'm very enthusiastic about the technology and the promise it holds for the "have-nots".

Cheers to beautiful sunny South Africa!