Hello from Africa

[Legit]

Hello from Africa

The hard earned knowledge given out by the people on this forum is amazing, thanks very much to everyone on the forum, very much appreciated.

Ongoing power outages and electricity costs have me eying the possibility of investing in a small solar system which I can get familiar with and possibly expand - the little research done on my side seems to point towards the batteries, so would like to get my head clear on the choice of battery setup first before venturing further into the other components needed.

My question to the experts : Is it advisable to kick off with Battery/Battery Management research before going into the other solar components required - We have plenty of sun - Wind and Hydro options are not available.

Have been checking out the discussions on "LifeP04/BMS" with much interest and am looking forward to engaging on this topic.

We always do things back to front in Africa, so feel free to correct this approach.

Many thanks
Legit

[Mike90250]

Welcome.

First, since you have grid power sometimes, the simplest place to start is with a UPS style system, like for a computer. It has a battery, charger, automatic transfer switch (ATS) and inverter. Grid power goes off, and the battery keeps your computer running for another 20 minutes. Just scale it up large enough to handle the expected loads and duration of the outages. And be sure the internal charger can recharge the batteries in a couple hours, or you will be without power if there is another power cut before they recharge.

[Legit]

Solar Batteries

Hello from Africa

The hard earned knowledge given out by the people on this forum is amazing, thanks very much to everyone on the forum, very much appreciated.

Ongoing power outages and electricity costs have me eying the possibility of investing in a small solar system which I can get familiar with and possibly expand - the little research done on my side seems to point towards the batteries, so would like to get my head clear on the choice of battery setup first before venturing further into the other components needed.

My question to the experts : Is it advisable to kick off with Battery/Battery Management research before going into the other solar components required - We have plenty of sun - Wind and Hydro options are not available.

Have been checking out the discussions on "LifeP04/BMS" with much interest and am looking forward to engaging on this topic.

We always do things back to front in Africa, so feel free to correct this approach.

Many thanks
Legit

Welcome.

First, since you have grid power sometimes, the simplest place to start is with a UPS style system, like for a computer. It has a battery, charger, automatic transfer switch (ATS) and inverter. Grid power goes off, and the battery keeps your computer running for another 20 minutes. Just scale it up large enough to handle the expected loads and duration of the outages. And be sure the internal charger can recharge the batteries in a couple hours, or you will be without power if there is another power cut before they recharge.

Thank you for the reply - hmmm, that's the very route I was trying to avoid, am aware that these units on the market that serve a purpose, but it's a toy, I would prefer not to spend my hard earned bucks on this setup - although I do get your point that this is the route to go seeing that there is grid power on hand and am aware of much bigger units on the market which could perhaps best serve my purpose.

My question was perhaps misunderstood - not your fault as I don't think it was put across very well.

Let's try again, It's a given, due to ongoing power cuts and electricity costs that we are going to gravitate towards supplying our own electricity in this part of the world, so in order to size up one's options, would it be foolish to start your research with the Battery and Battery management side of things before even looking at the different types of solar systems available - I say this because we all row the same boat, ie. the costs involved to the consumer of which,in my estimation, the battery and battery management side of the equation should receive 1st priority on your shopping list due to the costs of this solar component.

Most people seem to research all the other solar components at depth and leave the battery side of things till last - should we not be doing things the other way round and research the battery setup in depth before going out and buying solar systems that may well land up on the trash site.

In our country there are hundreds of solar panels,inverters,solar charges, UPS's ext. on the market to choose from,when it comes to batteries, the battery boys on this side keep very quite and do not want to know about other batteries besides the ordinary lead acid car batteries, perhaps they are afraid other battery types will impact their business.

Aplogies for being long winded, I hope this is a better explanation.

[DanKegel]

Better place to start may be examining energy efficiency.
Have you rigorously measured power consumption and looked for
ways to reduce it? Not as sexy, but pays off quicker.

There are people who live off-grid; it takes a lot of adjustment. I'm
no expert there but see

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forumdisplay.php?42-Off-grid-solar

e.g. its battery subforum.

Batteries that are big enough for an middle class house without
off-grid lifestyle changes and can last 10-30 years
are only just now coming onto the market (
http://bosch-solar-storage.com/the-b...thium-battery/ claims 7000 cycles
http://www.neces.com/assets/Microgrids-p154vFINAL1.pdf claims 8000 cycles
http://storage.pv-tech.org/news/sonn...attery-systems claims 10,000 cycles
http://gas2.org/2015/04/03/tesla-hom...etails-emerge/ Tesla's rumored battery system )
and addressing the efficiency side until those new
batteries are available is a good use of time.

[Legit]

Better place to start may be examining energy efficiency.
Have you rigorously measured power consumption and looked for
ways to reduce it? Not as sexy, but pays off quicker.

There are people who live off-grid; it takes a lot of adjustment. I'm
no expert there but see

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forumdisplay.php?42-Off-grid-solar

e.g. its battery subforum.

Batteries that are big enough for an middle class house without
off-grid lifestyle changes and can last 10-30 years
are only just now coming onto the market
http://bosch-solar-storage.com/the-b...thium-battery/ claims 7000 cycles
http://www.neces.com/assets/Microgrids-p154vFINAL1.pdf claims 8000 cycles
http://storage.pv-tech.org/news/sonn...attery-systems claims 10,000 cycles
http://gas2.org/2015/04/03/tesla-hom...etails-emerge/ Tesla's rumored battery system )
and addressing the efficiency side until those new
batteries are available is a good use of time.

Yes, this research(energy appliances ect) is par for the coarse and readily available, the lithium battery storage and cycle claims have got my attention - has anyone done the maths on using these 10,000 cycle batteries?

[DanKegel]

has anyone done the maths on using these 10,000 cycle batteries?

nobody has them yet, they're quite new.

Do you have a particular house in mind to repower?

[Legit]

Solar Batteries

nobody has them yet, they're quite new.

Do you have a particular house in mind to repower?

Yes, would like to start with a section of my own home - the area we relax after work that would include
two lights,ceiling fan,TV with it's bits and pieces,computer,printer & scanner - needs to be able to add to the system - I do have one of those Ellies plug in kWh meter readers which gives the start up kw spike(surge) of each appliance - the battery stuff and it's costs is what concerns me, had a peep at the
10,000 cycle claim by Sonnenbatterie from Germany, shooo certainly looks promising, German products in general are very good and I doubt whether they would pull the wool over your eyes with false claims?
What does concern me is you guys are not making a fuss about this?

[DanKegel]

Yes, would like to start with a section of my own home - the area we relax after work that would include
two lights,ceiling fan,TV with it's bits and pieces,computer,printer & scanner - needs to be able to add to the system - I do have one of those Ellies plug in kWh meter readers which gives the start up kw spike(surge) of each appliance

Sounds great. What's the daily energy usage of this area in KWH?

the battery stuff and it's costs is what concerns me, had a peep at the
10,000 cycle claim by Sonnenbatterie from Germany, shooo certainly looks promising, German products in general are very good and I doubt whether they would pull the wool over your eyes with false claims?
What does concern me is you guys are not making a fuss about this?

Most people in the US who get solar systems do so simply to
save money. Batteries generally do not help with that yet here.

But incentives for energy storage are popping up in a few areas
(New York, Hawaii, parts of Australia), so perhaps we'll start
seeing more systems offered and installed here in coming years.

[Legit]

Sounds great. What's the daily energy usage of this area in KWH?



Most people in the US who get solar systems do so simply to
save money. Batteries generally do not help with that yet here.

But incentives for energy storage are popping up in a few areas
(New York, Hawaii, parts of Australia), so perhaps we'll start
seeing more systems offered and installed here in coming years.

Cannot measure this now as the Ellies plug in gadget is not in my possession right now, a rough guess would be 10,000kwh per day.

Ok, now I understand why the battery claims are not debated, although your guys "Sunking" does have a wealth of knowledge on the subject - duh! very stupid of me to assume were in the same boat, grid tie in this country is a option but due to rising electricity costs, off the grid options must be explored, hence the interest in batteries as a medium of storing energy - in the meantime i have heard of a German who has built a energy storage unit that he claims is going to change the world, i will search for this article and post the link for comments.

[russ]

Cannot measure this now as the Ellies plug in gadget is not in my possession right now, a rough guess would be 10,000kwh per day.

Ok, now I understand why the battery claims are not debated, although your guys "Sunking" does have a wealth of knowledge on the subject - duh! very stupid of me to assume were in the same boat, grid tie in this country is a option but due to rising electricity costs, off the grid options must be explored, hence the interest in batteries as a medium of storing energy - in the meantime i have heard of a German who has built a energy storage unit that he claims is going to change the world, i will search for this article and post the link for comments.

10,000 kWh/day - wow - you are not going to measure that with a plug in gizmo

Since you believe the German maybe you are interested in a bridge I have for sale - The San Francisco Goldengate Bridge - cheap! A lot more possible than the vapourware claims from the German.

[DanKegel]

10,000 kWh/day - wow - you are not going to measure that with a plug in gizmo

I think he was referring to

http://www.ellies.co.za/energy_monitoring/efergy/Elite-Classic-Energy-Meter/FSEME

or

http://www.ellies.co.za/energy_monitoring/Energy-Monitoring-Socket/FSEMS

either of which could shed light on what's using how much energy.

BTW, Legit, just ignore the snarkiness and pay attention to the helpful info.
You have to have a thick skin on this forum.

[Living Large]

Cannot measure this now as the Ellies plug in gadget is not in my possession right now, a rough guess would be 10,000kwh per day.

Ok, now I understand why the battery claims are not debated, although your guys "Sunking" does have a wealth of knowledge on the subject - duh! very stupid of me to assume were in the same boat, grid tie in this country is a option but due to rising electricity costs, off the grid options must be explored, hence the interest in batteries as a medium of storing energy - in the meantime i have heard of a German who has built a energy storage unit that he claims is going to change the world, i will search for this article and post the link for comments.

I am only a beginner - but IMHO you should start not by thinking about battery chemistry, but in figuring out what kind of a system you need. You talk about going off-grid voluntarily - which is a dream for me not having the grid available. If you will really be off-grid, you will design differently right from the start.

I think you mean 10KWh per day. If you need 10,000KWh, you may require more advice than you may find even most the experienced people here can offer. As was advised, the first step is always identifying your daily load, your peak load, and if you can reduce any of your current loads. When you are buying equipment instead of electrons, more means more $$$, more to maintain, more to replace when it wears out. It really is an important step - because if you don't have enough capacity that will be a problem, and if you are oversized, that could cost a fair # of $$$.

Personally, I was looking at totally off-grid, low sun hours. LiPO4 was a great fit for my application. Leaving battery choice until the end did require some iterations in design - I went through AGM, Pb, AHI before I hit on LiPO4. But I knew from the get-go I was off-grid. Good luck and welcome! You'll find no shortage of opinions.

[DanKegel]

I think you mean 10KWh per day. If you need 10,000KWh...

Oh, I totally missed that typo! Yeah, I'm sure he meant 10,000 watt-hours/day or 10kwh/day.

[russ]

Oh, I totally missed that typo! Yeah, I'm sure he meant 10,000 watt-hours/day or 10kwh/day.

Congrats - you finally read it

[DanKegel]

That's a fine example of the snarkiness endemic on this forum
that one has to endure. It's worth it, but you do have to develop a
thick skin. Normally I just ignore it, but since we're trying to
welcome a newbie here, I figured it's worth pointing out.