Hi, I'm a Ham Radio operator, Computer tech, and I'm here to learn.

[SOLAR_FL]

Battery Lingo, and deciding on the right size.

I was looking around at what I can buy local, and not that this is the battery I plan to use, but I would like to know how to interpret this. I would like to use two 6 volt gold cart batteries, and these happen to be maintenance free AGM batteries made by Duracell. If this is not ideal, is it still pretty good, or do I need to find batteries that need venting, and not AGM?

The 2 100 watt panels are what will charge them, and this is what I see when I look at spec's. My understanding of amphour goes to the extent that a battery can deliver so many amps for so many hours. That's it. These specs have me a bit puzzled. Can someone help me break this down to simple terms that I can apply to other batteries that may give me the same sort of information?
What I learned from you guys so far, is that AGM is not the way to go, yet Golf Cart batteries are one option, and this one happens to be AGM. I also learned that some battery companies leave certain information off the battery to make unsuspecting \ ignorant buyers more apt to buy it.
I also know that you can tell a lot about a battery if they give you enough information, such a CCA, and when the use the words reserve power.

Can you apply that knowledge to this battery and break it down for me to get a better understanding?

I will be planning to use two of these to achieve a 12 volt system with 200 watts of panel power. I will use a MPPT charge controller, even if I have to buy a new one after testing the one I already bought.

Thanks guys..

Joe

Specifications


•1 amp hour rate:103
•100 amp hour rate:220
•20 amp hour rate:190
•3 amp hour rate:145
•5 amp hour rate:163
•6 amp hour rate:167.8
•8 amp hour rate:173.7
•BCI Group Size:GC2
•CCA at 0 degrees F:680
•MCA at 32 degrees F:900
•Minutes at 15 amps:718
•Minutes at 25 amps:409
•Minutes at 5 amps:2304
•Minutes at 50 amps:171
•Minutes at 75 amps:94
•Minutes at 8 amps:1409
•Reserve Capacity:380
•Volts:6

[Naptown]

Although the terminology they use is not correct batteries for the most part when giving the size are rated at the 20 hour rate. Or 5% of capacity per hour. C/20 is another way to put it.
In this case the AH rating is 109 at the 20 hour rate
Notice how the rating goes up at the 100 hour rate and way down at the 1 hour rate.
So how many amps does your equipment draw. That will affect battery life between charges.

[SOLAR_FL]

Although the terminology they use is not correct batteries for the most part when giving the size are rated at the 20 hour rate. Or 5% of capacity per hour. C/20 is another way to put it.
In this case the AH rating is 109 at the 20 hour rate
Notice how the rating goes up at the 100 hour rate and way down at the 1 hour rate.
So how many amps does your equipment draw. That will affect battery life between charges.

I would want batteries that would be big enough to load my panels, and be charged from the lowest acceptable point to full charge in one full day of Florida sun. My load will not be relevant, I am only interested in using the biggest batteries that my two 100 watt panels can support, with the time to recharge from the lowest point to full charge being the goal, do it in one day of sun.

Is that a reasonable goal?

I have ham gear, and other uses for the power, and this is only to get myself educated on how it all works, and how well it all works over time.


Tnx, Joe

[Sunking]

I was looking around at what I can buy local, and not that this is the battery I plan to use, but I would like to know how to interpret this. I would like to use two 6 volt gold cart batteries, and these happen to be maintenance free AGM batteries made by Duracell.

You live in Florida right? If correct you live in golf Cart and NEV capital of the world. There are thousands of golf cart and NEV shops in Florida to buy real Golf Cart Batteries from at good prices. Trojan -T105.

[Sunking]

Specifications


•1 amp hour rate:103
•100 amp hour rate:220
•20 amp hour rate:190
•3 amp hour rate:145
•5 amp hour rate:163
•6 amp hour rate:167.8
•8 amp hour rate:173.7
•BCI Group Size:GC2
•CCA at 0 degrees F:680
•MCA at 32 degrees F:900
•Minutes at 15 amps:718
•Minutes at 25 amps:409
•Minutes at 5 amps:2304
•Minutes at 50 amps:171
•Minutes at 75 amps:94
•Minutes at 8 amps:1409
•Reserve Capacity:380
•Volts:6

This part below is:

•100 amp hour rate:220
•20 amp hour rate:190
•3 amp hour rate:145
•1 amp hour rate:103

Is Peukert Law which simply states: The greater the discharge rate, the lower the capacity. So if you look at the 100 HOUR rate means if you applied a discharge current 2.2 amps should last 100 hours or the battery has a capacity of 220 Amp Hours. C/100 = 2.2 amps or 2.2 amps x 100 hours = 220 Amp Hours. Most manufactures specify the capacity at the 20 hour discharge rate and for this battery 20 hour rate = 190 AH. That means you should be able to apply a 9.5 amp load for 20 hours. Now if we go to the bottom at the 3 hour discharge rate it has a capacity of 145 AH meaning if you apply a load of 48.3 amps would last 3 hours. Last is the 1 hour discharge rate of 103 amps.

Next is the bad news:

•CCA at 0 degrees F:680
•MCA at 32 degrees F:900

Tells you instantly this is not a deep cycle battery. It tells you it is a hybrid SLI battery aka cranking battery made for starting engines.

This part is what you will see with hybrid batteries mostly Marine marketed batteries and is similar to amp hours piut into a different way and is straight forward.

•Minutes at 15 amps:718
•Minutes at 25 amps:409
•Minutes at 5 amps:2304
•Minutes at 50 amps:171
•Minutes at 75 amps:94
•

Minutes at 8 amps:1409

8 amps is very close to the 20 hour discharge rate of 9.5 amps. What they are saying is if you apply a 8 amp load the battery should last 1409 minutes which = 23.5 hours and that works out to 187 AH.

Last we have

•Reserve Capacity:380

Which is another Marine hybrid spec called Reserve Capacity (RC) which means how many minute the battery can supply a 25 amp load. It can also be converted to AH. 380 minutes = 6.33 hours. So if the battery is discharged at 25 amps has a capacity of 25 amps x 6.33 hours = 158 AH at the 6 hour discharge rate which is very close to what you have.


Now please go look at what a T-105 has and compare. It is the exact same BCI case GC2. What do you see and not see. You do not see any CCA MCA, or RC spec do you? Now scroll down to the second page and you will see what Duracell does not dare publish.

[SOLAR_FL]

Will the T105 require venting? I plan to keep the batteries inside an air conditioned space in my Ham Shack. If I go with the pare of T105 batteries, will they be a good match for my two panels all by themselves?
You are correct, we have more golf carts in Florida than almost anywhere else. Maybe Cali has more. I will check with my local battery dealer, I can't get around the core charge, but I can get a good price on the battery if he carries it.

If I wanted a sealed battery, is there one you recommend?

Tnx, Joe

[Sunking]

Will the T105 require venting? I plan to keep the batteries inside an air conditioned space in my Ham Shack. If I go with the pare of T105 batteries, will they be a good match for my two panels all by themselves?

No problem. In a ventilated space you are OK.

You stand more of a chance of blowing yourself up eating pickled eggs and sausages, drinking beer, smoking, and then FART. Both smell the same like rotten eggs. If you smell that time to ventilate. As long as you keep the voltages below gassing point point you are OK. With 200 watt s on a pair of Trojans it would be very difficult to overcharge and reach gassing voltages

If I wanted a sealed battery, is there one you recommend?

Concord Sun Extender line up. Just be aware AGM cost 2 to 3 times as much for a given capacity and only last half as long as a good FLA.

A pair of T-!05's (6 volt 225 AH) will set you back $250 to $280. A pair of Concorde PVX-2240T a 6 volt 224 AH battery will set you back $600. Be careful what you ask for! AGM batteries are niche application to justify cost.

[SOLAR_FL]

Sure is. With PWM controllers Input Current = Output Current. So with say a standard 100 watt battery panel with an Imp = 5.55 amps. You will see 5.5 amps going into the controller and see 5.5 amps going out to the battery. Net effect it turns your 100 watt panel into a 66 watt panel 12 volts x 5.5 amps = 66 watts.

With true MPPT Output Current = Panel Wattage / Battery Voltage - 2 to 3 % conversion loss. So that same 100 watt panel outputs 8.1 amps or 97 watts. Huge difference.

Quit watching You Tube. Stick with facts.

That controller came today, and it felt pretty light, and was missing one of 4 screws from the back. The heat sink was a very light piece of aluminum, no real mass to it, and it has 1/4" fins protruding from the back. I pulled the 3 screws and checked the inside, and it had none of the parts from the MPPT controller that was shown to me in Youtube. The author of that MPPT demonstration said that the first thing he looked for, before testing it, was the parts that make up the DC to DC converter that is a major component of MPPT controllers. His demonstration went on to show the controller in operation, and he compared the reading the meter gave with his own reading taken with his own tools.
I have no doubt that this controller is not MPPT, and when I read the small card of information that came with it, it says compatible MPPT PWM controller. If any of you guys who have been helping me doubt the information I got about the DC to DC controllers requiring two Toroid transformers on the board, I will have to test the controller and that may take another a few more days, or at least until the weekend. That's the soonest I can connect the panels and put it all together on some batteries. It won't be the batteries I plan to use at that point, as getting the batteries is going to take longer. The closet place to get Triton is a bit away from me. All I can get here is Exide, and one other that you all shot down already. I checked the Triton web site for dealers, and they listed only one, and it wasn't close to me, or my work location.

I will include a picture of the inside top side of the board, the only parts you can't see are the Mosfets that are on the bottom against the heat sink. I added a picture of the MPPT controller that was tested by the guy on Youtube.

Comments are welcomed, good or bad, even ones like "I told you so"...

[Sunking]

Comments are welcomed, good or bad, even ones like "I told you so"...

Sorry but I told.......

Here is the deal my friend, there are about 4 good manufactures of True MPPT controllers. Midnight Solar, Outback. Morningstar, and Xantrex. The fact is to be a true MPPT controller it takes some serious electronics and processing. That comes with a cost associated with it. No way around it. Of those manufactures I mentioned Morningstar makes the least expensive and smaller units of:

15 amps @ $160
45 amps @ $400
60 amps @ $600

In other words about $10 per amp. So when you see something less than that, is a RED Flag something is not right. Those same Morningstar PWM controllers are

15 amp @ $50
45 amps @ $180
60 amps @ $220

If you can get your money back. But now that you opened it up, I doubt you stand a chance. Even if you never took it out of the box I doubt you get your money back. Sorry you had to learn the ole fashion way. Like my Dad use to tell me while holding a belt ready to beat my butt, "You have been told, now it is time to learn"

[SunEagle]

Sorry but I told.......

Here is the deal my friend, there are about 4 good manufactures of True MPPT controllers. Midnight Solar, Outback. Morningstar, and Xantrex. The fact is to be a true MPPT controller it takes some serious electronics and processing. That comes with a cost associated with it. No way around it. Of those manufactures I mentioned Morningstar makes the least expensive and smaller units of:

15 amps @ $160
45 amps @ $400
60 amps @ $600

In other words about $10 per amp. So when you see something less than that, is a RED Flag something is not right. Those same Morningstar PWM controllers are

15 amp @ $50
45 amps @ $180
60 amps @ $220

If you can get your money back. But now that you opened it up, I doubt you stand a chance. Even if you never took it out of the box I doubt you get your money back. Sorry you had to learn the ole fashion way. Like my Dad use to tell me while holding a belt ready to beat my butt, "You have been told, now it is time to learn"

What about the Tracer line of MPPT charge controllers? Their costs falls between the cheap fake units and the really good ones you mentioned above.

Their 2210RN 20 amp model is about $150 and the 3215RN 30 amp about $200. I have heard both good an bad comments about them.

I would like a 30 amp unit but Morningstar doesn't make one in that size.

[Sunking]

What about the Tracer line of MPPT charge controllers?

Really cannot comment because I have no experience with them or seen any test data. The other 4 I have either worked with or have seen enough test data to have an opinion.

[SOLAR_FL]

Sorry but I told.......


If you can get your money back. But now that you opened it up, I doubt you stand a chance. Even if you never took it out of the box I doubt you get your money back. Sorry you had to learn the ole fashion way. Like my Dad use to tell me while holding a belt ready to beat my butt, "You have been told, now it is time to learn"

I have been on Ebay for a very long time, and the days of getting ripped off have been over for me for a very long time. There is buyer protection, so I don't worry about getting ripped off as much as I worry that I didn't read the auction terms before committing to the purchase. With that said, I got 100% of my money back, and I got to keep the controller. The auction made some pretty specific claims, and it was easy to dispute. The other picture showed a true MPPT controller. The guy who tested it did a pretty good job of proving the MPPT was working on camera. The only doubt I have is that the Morningstar does not look big enough to have any toroid transformer in it, so if it is a true MPPT controller that has me wondering a bit about the one I have. Does MPPT use DC to DC converters, and do they always need transformers to work? Maybe one of the resident Solar professionals can answer that question. I will test it just because it's here, and at the very least it will be a PWM controller.

[Naptown]

Perhaps post a picture of the guts of it
I am no EE but there are plenty of them here.

[Sunking]

Does MPPT use DC to DC converters, and do they always need transformers to work?

Any MPPT controller is a DC to DC Power Converter, more specifically a BUCK converter and minimum only requires two electronic switches (FET Transistor), a diode, capacitor, and an inductor. No transformer is required as it steps down the voltage and boost the current. Higher end models like Midnite Solar use DC-AC-DC conversion and use high frequency transformers.

I can guarantee you MorningStar MPPT is MPPT. Just keep in mind Morningstar offers their controllers in both PWM and MPPT models, so do not make the mistake of confusing the two. The 15 amp SunSaver PWM is $50, while the 15 Amp SunSaver MPPT is $160.

[SOLAR_FL]

The picture of the guts is a few frames up screen, the only thing you can't see are the Mosfets, or transistors that are up against the aluminum heat-sink on the back. I put a 24 volt DC supply on the solar side, and my UPS batteries on the battery side, and what I know is that my batteries have a full charge and the controller isn't doing too much. When I put my volt meter on the power supply coming in, the voltage was swinging up and down like it was being shorted, so I don't know what to think of that. The controller gets it operating voltage from the batteries. It has a load terminal that shows a picture of a light bulb, so I imagine it can turn the lights on and off via the one button that has a picture of a light bulb on it. I put a volt meter on the light bulb output, and I get 11 volts when it is off, and battery voltage when it is on. Maybe it has to have a load on it to pull it all the way down when it is off. Just a guess, but as I just tested it with an inverter, it does have to have a load. So I will put a small load on the inverter and cut the solar input off for a while to draw the batteries down. This is only for testing purposes, and to learn something about the charger. I hope to pick up some gold cart batteries by the weekend, they may not be Trojan because anyone I ask said they had to order them. Instead I may get the bigger Exide batteries I saw in the BJ's Club store this past weekend.
With a 75 watt bulb on the inverter, the controller shows 6 amps going out, and my Fluke shows the same.

I will upload a picture of the display as it sits right now with a 75 watt load on the inverter on the output of the controller. The instructions are for someone with more experience than I, but I should be able to test the MPPT function after the batteries are depleted a little more.

Update: Attached first page of the data on the processor used in this controller. Comments welcomed.mpptproc.jpg
The controller also has some sort of relay I can hear clicking at a rate of about once per second.