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  • #31
    i don't think we are getting it. The generation capacity is like a giant phase locked loop, someone
    has figured out the Proportional, Integral, and Differential feedback to stabilize it. The system is
    controlling turbine throttles to keep the frequency on 60 HZ; no human hand it trusted to do such
    a job. Humans can take steps to bring on plants or dump loads, though that is heading toward
    automation as well. Bruce Roe

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    • #32
      Originally posted by bcroe View Post
      i don't think we are getting it. The generation capacity is like a giant phase locked loop, someone
      has figured out the Proportional, Integral, and Differential feedback to stabilize it. The system is
      controlling turbine throttles to keep the frequency on 60 HZ; no human hand it trusted to do such
      a job. Humans can take steps to bring on plants or dump loads, though that is heading toward
      automation as well. Bruce Roe
      Bruce that is somewhat correct. But there is some human interaction. Operators know the capacity of the system, and patterns. When a system is nearing capacity, the Operator can then either bid/buy on the Market, if none is available, shed load aka Blackout. The safety valve so to speak is automatic, If a generator is over loaded, it trips off line, Hell breaks loose and you have a massive blackout over a very large area. Exactly what is happening in the land of OZ and coming to CA.

      There are really only two good working solutions. Short Term is NG peaker plants. Those can be built very fast. Peakers are not real efficient as boiler plants, they use gas turbines. They can be on line in minutes at full production. Long term is traditional power plant to cover base loads.

      Batteries are just plain stupid and a waste of money. As we have learned Lithium batteries do not offset C02. You will never have an EROI with any battery. EV fans got a cold slap in the face including myself.

      Th eland of OZ has more than enough energy for the whole world to use for millions of years. . In fact some of the World uses it, Australia just refuses to use it.
      Last edited by Sunking; 07-24-2017, 03:33 PM.
      MSEE, PE

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sunking View Post

        Bruce that is somewhat correct. But there is some human interaction. Operators know the capacity of the system, and patterns. When a system is nearing capacity, the Operator can then either bid/buy on the Market, if none is available, shed load aka Blackout. The safety valve so to speak is automatic, If a generator is over loaded, it trips off line, Hell breaks loose and you have a massive blackout over a very large area. Exactly what is happening in the land of OZ and coming to CA.
        I think we said the same thing.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by bcroe View Post

          I think we said the same thing.
          Yes Sir.
          MSEE, PE

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          • #35
            How how much battery would it take to make Utopia? I don't know.

            townhall.com/columnists/pauldriessen/2017/07/22/tesla-battery-subsidy-and-sustainability-fantasies-n2358396

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            • #36
              Dan, I think you mean well, but you are just not competent to be giving any advice on most of the things you talk about.

              Lets try a week's vacation till 08-01-2017, ~10:00 PM and see how that works out, We mods have to do something to all these threads that wander all over hell and gone, due to the off-the-wall stuff you randomly throw out.

              Several folks were talking about how politics was getting in the way of engineering; I just wanted to mention some of the sensible things happening to reduce chances of another blackout, to cheer people up.
              Nope, in times of overload, that battery only buys a couple minutes - maybe not even that. Unless you hook it to the grid with a expensive giant transformer that sits idle 364.9 days of the year - then you can suck power till the battery goes flat. With a 6Gw transformer sitting idle. How much power can a battery & cables deal with - I doubt it's 6Gw, which is what was needed back in 2003
              [U][I]4:10:40 p.m. Flow flips to 2 GW eastward from Michigan through Ontario (a net reversal of 5.7 GW of power), then reverses back westward again within a half second.[/I][/U]

              The grid operator can nip the problem in the bud by signalling generators to quickly increase their output. (Loads can also respond to that signal by reducing their load.)
              Well a phone is faster than a telegraph, but there was a Plethora of Problems that day. The first 90 minutes was the time frame humans could have done something, but the automated alarm failed. Then at 4:08 thru 4:10 eastern, it all fell apart as last ditch automated cutouts kicked in, way faster than a phone could be dialed.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe...ence_of_events

              Last edited by Mike90250; 07-26-2017, 01:12 AM.
              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                Dan, I think you mean well, but you are just not competent to be giving any advice on most of the things you talk about.

                Lets try a week's vacation till 08-01-2017, ~10:00 PM and see how that works out, We mods have to do something to all these threads that wander all over hell and gone, due to the off-the-wall stuff you randomly throw out.

                Nope, in times of overload, that battery only buys a couple minutes - maybe not even that. Unless you hook it to the grid with a expensive giant transformer that sits idle 364.9 days of the year - then you can suck power till the battery goes flat. With a 6Gw transformer sitting idle. How much power can a battery & cables deal with - I doubt it's 6Gw, which is what was needed back in 2003
                [U][I]4:10:40 p.m. Flow flips to 2 GW eastward from Michigan through Ontario (a net reversal of 5.7 GW of power), then reverses back westward again within a half second.[/I][/U]



                Well a phone is faster than a telegraph, but there was a Plethora of Problems that day. The first 90 minutes was the time frame humans could have done something, but the automated alarm failed. Then at 4:08 thru 4:10 eastern, it all fell apart as last ditch automated cutouts kicked in, way faster than a phone could be dialed.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe...ence_of_events
                Sorry for offtopic, couldn't resist: I (from all ppl) remember that blackout: I was working in downtown Toronto and leaving the office noticed a lot of 'broken' traffic signals and unusual traffic mess. It was a hot day in Toronto and as my luck goes right at that time my car's cooling fans in the engine bay decided to quit meaning: no AC and if I wanted to keep the engine from overheating I need to be moving on the road so incoming air would cool it but the traffic jams were in all directions for miles. Toronto is located on the shores of lake Ontario so there're only 180 degree sector available to leave downtown. So here I was sitting in the car with heater (!) at full blast and opened windows having sauna right in the car . I also had important appointment that evening which I still made 2 hrs later. The car survived, that heater was barely enough to keep it from overheating at idle.

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