Would you buy if offered Battery Bank?

[DanKegel]

The whole context of the law is :
In english it says "If a C-10 contractor does not hire a licensed electrical contractor, he can put his C-10 lic on the line and hire a person who is merely "certified"..
But Certified cannot work a job by themselves, they have to work under a Licensed contractor who is supposed to supervise them.

In the interest of civility and accuracy, though, do you agree that it was incorrect for anyone to claim there's not such thing as a certified electrician?

[Mike90250]

The whole context of the law is :

Existing law requires that persons performing work as electrician under a C-10 licensed contractor be certified pursuant to certification standards established by the Division of Labor Standards Enforcement. “Electricians” is defined as all persons who engage in the connection of electrical devices for electrical contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and Profession Code, specifically, contractors classified as electrical contractors in the Contractors State License Board Rules and Regulations [Labor Code § 108 (c)].

In english it says "If a C-10 contractor does not hire a licensed electrical contractor, he can put his C-10 lic on the line and hire a person who is merely "certified"..

But Certified cannot work a job by themselves, they have to work under a Licensed contractor who is supposed to supervise them.

[DanKegel]

Now we know you are a liar. There is no such thing as a certified electrician.

May I direct you to http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/ecu/electricaltrade.html which says

Electrician Certification Program
Existing law requires that persons performing work as electrician under a C-10 licensed contractor be certified..."

[Sunking]

I am a certified electrician and electronics technician.

Now we know you are a liar. There is no such thing as a certified electrician. What ever technician certificates you may or may not hold are worthless pieces of paper.

To be an Electrician requires a License. If you were a Sparky, you would know that.

[Sunking]

MPPT does extend the life of a battery bank. It does so many things behind the scenes that it is not worth my time trying to explain it to someone who doesn't understand it. You need to do your research into MPPT before opening your mouth..

LOL and thank you. How many years did it take for you to be so stupid?

[Sunking]

I am trying to let people know that battery banks can be cheaper and can last over 15 years. Right now I am building one that is 3000ah which will power my home for the whole night for $10k. I'm using the same type of batteries I used in my 600ah bank for the past 6 years. I don't use lead acid batteries or solar batteries. I will give my battery bank 15 years before I have to replace it.

Thanks for that, now we know you are full of crap.

[DanKegel]

And if they had battery systems, they'd be paying even more.

Truth. With net metering 1.0, batteries are a definite minus. The grid is your battery.

[jflorey2]

Why do people say POCO provides for free?

That's how net metering works.

Here in California I have a 5kw panel array and 3600w inverter and still pay $275 at end of year to local electric company.

Right. And I have a 10kW array and pay about $8 a month. Net metering does not mean you are guaranteed to have a zero bill - it just means you can send power back to the grid, then use power from the grid later, and use the power you sent to the grid to offset your later usage. If you want to get your bill close to zero, then install more solar or (much smarter) reduce your usage.

Not including the $5 to $10 monthly for taxes, emergency, and several other fees. The power company does not provide battery backup for free. Here in California Solar City is limited on production being 97% of consumption. I am still paying the power company 3% of my electricity.
Here in California some people even pay higher than $600 per month.

Yep. And if they had battery systems, they'd be paying even more.

[jflorey2]

Electrical and electronic theory: Impedance matching minimizes on heat. Which is detrimental to chargers, batteries, cables, and connectors! Therefore, extending life of battery banks.

No. It does not MINIMIZE impedance It MATCHES impedance. That means that it changes the apparent resistance of the battery system to get the most possible energy out of the solar panel. In general, it increases apparent resistance, so that the panel operates at a higher voltage than it ordinarily would. (A PWM charger forces the panels to operate either at battery voltage or open circuit.)

Impedance is resistance: resistance controls current in a circuit which creates heat. So when you match the resistance in one device to another you create less heat. batteries in battery banks maintain their temperatures during charging prolonging the life of the battery.

By using an MPPT device to match impedances, more current can be delivered to the battery compared to a PWM charger. Since the internal resistance of the battery does not change depending on the charging system, and heating is proportional to I^2R, internal heating INCREASES with an MPPT charger (with a given solar panel array.)

A good example of something you could stand to learn a bit more about.

In my honest opinion MPPT is the best type of charging system for any battery bank. In my opinion they have increased the left span of battery banks compared to 40 years ago. If you don't believe that then take a hike and get off my thread.

No thanks. You are still pretty clueless when it comes to this, and I'll continue to post corrections to your mistakes.

But rather than telling you to take a hike, I'd invite you to stick around and learn a bit more about renewable energy.

[DanKegel]

Even in CA there isn't a demand.
All 3 major POCOs have net metering.

Well, SDG&E just hit their cap, so they're transitioning to NEM 2.0. That makes storage slightly more attractive (I think NEM 2.0 charges two cents or so per kWh stored in the grid, so that's a cost you could avoid by storing those kWh in a real battery).

California has incentives for energy storage, I think; the SGIP handbook says it's $1.31/watt. That might help a bit, too (though you have to get an energy audit to qualify, and who knows what else).

And I think the federal solar investment tax credit also applies, in a somewhat limited way.

So, there might be room. You need to really get your ducks in a row to make that case, though.

BUT: you probably have to match Sonnen's features, and that might be hard to do... their system is smart, you'd probably end up having to write a bunch of software. How are your C skills?

[SunEagle]

I expect push backs and insults: I ask for the push backs so I can prepare myself for the unknown questions. The insults need to be kept at bay. I realize I was feeding the fire and I apologize for that. I delete most of my response on a few posts trying to put the fire out.

You have to remember Tesla is working with a battery bank that has physical limits: size, weight, higher discharge rates, and so forth. Battery Banks for homes have very little limiting. They still have some but are a lot less than what Tesla is facing!

The batteries I am using are considered one the best types of batteries used for many applications. They just never been thought of when it comes to battery banks. Their battery composition is the best I found so far. The charge controllers I found are great and have many features than most other competitors. I've tested them for over 4 years now and I feel they are market ready.

My plans are to make them proprietary by locking them inside a specially designed storage to keep others out for safety reasons, as well as, to protect the 15 year warranty on them. These battery banks will be built with quality and durability in mind. I don't want to go into details without discussing this with an attorney of what type of information I should provide without damaging my proprietary design.

I understand. I would hope that once your design has been proven in more than a few beta tests, you go the route of getting it UL listed so there isn't any doubt concerning safety or IEEE compliant.

[Mike90250]

........
My intentions was to see if there is a demand for battery banks/backups; which I am taking by all the push back here on this forum nation wide there is no demand.
......
I am certified and have to fall under the NEC; UL is not required but .......

So, I'm off grid, have daily consumption of about 12KWh summer and 9KWh in winter. Currently using a 800Ah 48V bank with thousands of $$ in 48V gear.
I have 5KW of PV, and usually have been in float for a hour or more if it's a sunny day. Do you know of another battery bank I should be using ?

And I question your statement that UL is not required. AFIK, electrical gear connected to household electric system needs UL cert to meet homeowners insurance requirements, and most city codes also require UL cert. How do you comply with that ?

[foo1bar]

I pay about $80 /month to Solar City and I pay about $5 to $10 per month to Edison and then I pay another $275 per year to Edison for consumption.

Ok - so you have a system that doesn't meet 100% of your demands now.
I don't think batteries will help that much with it.

My inverter is undersized: 3600watts total. My panels produce 5kw per hour. I get about 7 hours of production for a total of 35kwh but my inverter handles only 25.2kwh. If I took the 9.8kwh produced over what my inverter can handle and store them in a battery bank I could use that during the night time when I am using Edison's grid.

Do you have 5000W of modules? Are they fixed position (roof mounted or in a fixed/non-tracking ground mount)?
If so, then it's only for a fraction of the time are you producing more than the 3.6kW that the inverter can handle.
It's not 7 hours worth like you are calculating.
You can get a guesstimate by looking at your production curve over the day and seeing when (or if) it reaches 3.6kW and how long it stays at that level.

You should do some reading on results from search of "undersized inverter clipping".
I think you'll find that you *may* be getting some clipping with a 5000/3600 ratio.
But it's probably only a few percent.

BTW - If you're paying Solar City per kwh that you get from them, then it doesn't matter too much to you (other than you might have been better off with 5.5 or 6kW system instead of 5kW - and that would probably be worth arguing with them to increase the size of the system, both more modules and larger inverter)

Also - since it's a lease / power-purchase-agreement, if you change their equipment (by adding in batteries in between the modules and the inverter) that's going to cause you all sorts of problems. If there's ANY issue with the equipment (even if it's not because of your changes) they'll blame you.

Only in California, there is a demand due to limitations on our systems. Correction: Only a few areas have demands for battery banks not just California.

Even in CA there isn't a demand.
All 3 major POCOs have net metering.
And I think all 3 have a solar-friendly TOU tarriff. (so storing from peak times to be used at off-peak is even less of a benefit)
Because of net metering, the solar install can be sized to match the annual usage.
And the end bill will be the monthly minimum charge.
That your install was apparently undersized is not something that generalizes to all (or even most) of CA. It's a problem with your installer and/or your specific situation. Your neighbor could go buy a properly sized install that would be just ~$180/year for the monthly minimums.

[einsvanian]

I pay about $80 /month to Solar City and I pay about $5 to $10 per month to Edison and then I pay another $275 per year to Edison for consumption.

My inverter is undersized: 3600watts total. My panels produce 5kw per hour. I get about 7 hours of production for a total of 35kwh but my inverter handles only 25.2kwh. If I took the 9.8kwh produced over what my inverter can handle and store them in a battery bank I could use that during the night time when I am using Edison's grid. When I signed up for Solar City I asked for a 5kw system but I got the 3.6kw inverter with a 5kw solar panel. Doesn't make sense and SC is currently looking into it.

Another thing, SC didn't take into account that I was using a battery bank and 1kw solar array when they used my electric bill to design their system. I tried to explain to them but that got lost when the order was placed on the engineer's desk.

[DanKegel]

My intentions was to see if there is a demand for battery banks/backups; which I am taking by all the push back here on this forum nation wide there is no demand. Only in California, there is a demand due to limitations on our systems. Correction: Only a few areas have demands for battery banks not just California.

Well, there's a large "you've got to be cruel to be kind" contingent on this bulletin board, and they feel morally justified in using insults. You just have to ignore that part of it, and pay attention to their substantive comments.

Demand will come when there's a product worth buying. The few areas that have already stopped offering net metering and/or have instituted demand charges are your likely target markets.

Tesla, Sonnen, Adara, Sunverge, and LG are testing the market now. If you want to compete with them, knock yourself out, but I'd suggest getting started some other way. Sell some kind of system that is already practical, and add storage to it when that becomes available. Or maybe be one of their installers. Good luck!