Help with Solar Pump system design? Please!

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  • jungleexplorer
    Junior Member
    • Apr 2012
    • 19

    Help with Solar Pump system design? Please!

    I moved out to a rural area and after several test drills, we finally found water. But the well is located over 700 feet from grid power and the cost of running the appropriate sized copper wire is pretty high. So I am looking at going with a solar pumping system. I have looked around and it appears that each system has to be custom designed. So here I am to ask for some help from people that know a lot more about this subject then I do. I know this can get complicated, so I will try to help by providing as much information as I can.

    First off though, could you just give me the basic list of components I would need to build the system; for instance, 1. Pump, 2. PV panels, 3. Controller and so on and so forth.

    Here are the specifics of my system:

    1. The well. My well is 100 feet deep. It had about 70 feet of water in it when not in use. It has a maximum sustained production rate of 4 GPM.

    2. My purpose. I will be using this well for all of my household needs as well as irrigation for a garden. To keep it simple, I want to build a system that can pump 4 GPM continually 24 hours a day. I plan on using a 50 gallon pressure tank at 60 PSI pressure.

    I have been looking around at pumps and found the SunPumps SDS-Q-135. It looks like it will produce the volume I would need for my 100 foot deep well, but I can't find any statistics for it when it comes to using it in a pressure system.

    Could someone help me design a system to fit my needs? Thanks.
  • Naptown
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2011
    • 6880

    #2
    Then consider using an appropriate size direct burial aluminum service entrance cable.
    Do the voltage drop calculations to the well head and then connect the copper to the aluminum using approved lugs in an approved enclosure.
    You could use the same trench as the water line is in just separate by at least a foot vertically with the wire on the top

    A 1000 foot roll of # 4 or #2 will cost about $300.00
    So you will have about $1000 cost to run the electric which will run the pump 24/7
    Or invest a huge amount in batteries panels etc which will cost on the order of 4-5 times as much not including the additional costs for that expensive pump.

    If you insist on solar I suggest a water tower to gravity feed to the house with perhaps a small pressure pump running on grid power. That way you pump during daylight and the pump shuts down at night.
    NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

    [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

    [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

    [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

    Comment

    • jungleexplorer
      Junior Member
      • Apr 2012
      • 19

      #3
      Thanks. A friend of mine said it would be cheaper to go solar then to run wire, but I thought he did not know what he was talking. Solar is great but PV panels will have to come way down for it to be a feasible alternative for household use.

      Comment

      • Naptown
        Solar Fanatic
        • Feb 2011
        • 6880

        #4
        Originally posted by jungleexplorer
        Thanks. A friend of mine said it would be cheaper to go solar then to run wire, but I thought he did not know what he was talking. Solar is great but PV panels will have to come way down for it to be a feasible alternative for household use.
        It's not the PV panels that are the issue
        it is all the battery stuff and expensive pump that make it expensive.
        NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

        [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

        [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

        [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

        Comment

        • Sunking
          Solar Fanatic
          • Feb 2010
          • 23301

          #5
          Originally posted by jungleexplorer
          Thanks. A friend of mine said it would be cheaper to go solar then to run wire,
          He just does not what he is talking about. Off-Grid Solar should only be used if there is no other option.
          MSEE, PE

          Comment

          • Wy_White_Wolf
            Solar Fanatic
            • Oct 2011
            • 1179

            #6
            Originally posted by jungleexplorer
            ..2. My purpose. I will be using this well for all of my household needs as well as irrigation for a garden. To keep it simple, I want to build a system that can pump 4 GPM continually 24 hours a day. I plan on using a 50 gallon pressure tank at 60 PSI pressure...
            Off the top of my head I'd say you're looking at $25 to 30 THOUSAND if you want to do that on solar.

            Now if you want to install a cistern and use a solar direct pump to fill and a gravity feed or second pump to pressurize everything one might get by for much less.

            WWW

            Comment

            • Mike90250
              Moderator
              • May 2009
              • 16020

              #7
              Solar and battery, for 24/7, is out. Or will be VERY pricey. Even for a lottery winner!

              I agree with the trench and #2 aluminum wire. And specify a 240VAC pump with a 40-80 gallon pressure tank, at the pump (puts all the controls at one spot). The larger the pressure tank, the fewer on-off cycles for the pump. Starting is quite hard on pumps, so anything you can do to spare them, is good.

              You will only need 1/3 or 1/2 hp pump, to supply 4GPM for your depth and pressure you want. Too large, will pump your well dry, and most "standard" pumps have no easy sensor for "Run Dry" shutdown. There are some electronic controllers that can sense a free-wheeling pump, and shut it down, but a 4GPM well is pretty small. Insist on inspecting the "Pump Curve" for the pump & motor combination you choose, to make sure it's what you need, and not what is overstocked at the moment.
              Last edited by Mike90250; 04-03-2012, 09:38 PM.
              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment

              • Naptown
                Solar Fanatic
                • Feb 2011
                • 6880

                #8
                And don't forget if the tank is located at the well to compensate for the pressure drop and loss of volume from 700 feet of pipe.
                NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

                Comment

                • jungleexplorer
                  Junior Member
                  • Apr 2012
                  • 19

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Wy_White_Wolf
                  Off the top of my head I'd say you're looking at $25 to 30 THOUSAND if you want to do that on solar.

                  Now if you want to install a cistern and use a solar direct pump to fill and a gravity feed or second pump to pressurize everything one might get by for much less.

                  WWW
                  Holy Smoke!!! I was thinking it would cost around three thousand, not thirty! Thirty thousand just for a 12v DC water well pump to produce 4 gpm, are you serious? I talked with a dealer that said he had a Shurflow pump kit that would do 2000 gallons a day for $1,400.00, including batteries and PV panels. I knew it would cost more to do what I wanted, but I had no idea it would cost 20 times as much. Running wire seems like a bargain now!

                  Comment

                  • russ
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 10360

                    #10
                    In a similar situation Mike ran wire and he is off grid - be well aware that you are being fed bull by your friend and sales people.
                    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                    Comment

                    • jungleexplorer
                      Junior Member
                      • Apr 2012
                      • 19

                      #11
                      Originally posted by russ
                      In a similar situation Mike ran wire and he is off grid - be well aware that you are being fed bull by your friend and sales people.

                      Not that I am questioning the advice I am getting here, but where is the expense at that equals 25 to 30 thousands. I mean the pump I am looking at runs $830 and I can get Kyocera KD185GX-LPU 185 Watt panels for $300 from Northern Arizona Wind and Sun. I don't know about batteries, but I just don't see where you get to $30,000.00 to run a pump. I would expect 30,000.00 to be what I would spend to run my whole house, not just one little 12 volt water pump. Where is the hidden cost here?

                      Comment

                      • Naptown
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Feb 2011
                        • 6880

                        #12
                        Originally posted by jungleexplorer
                        I moved out to a rural area and after several test drills, we finally found water. But the well is located over 700 feet from grid power and the cost of running the appropriate sized copper wire is pretty high. So I am looking at going with a solar pumping system. I have looked around and it appears that each system has to be custom designed. So here I am to ask for some help from people that know a lot more about this subject then I do. I know this can get complicated, so I will try to help by providing as much information as I can.

                        First off though, could you just give me the basic list of components I would need to build the system; for instance, 1. Pump, 2. PV panels, 3. Controller and so on and so forth.

                        Here are the specifics of my system:

                        1. The well. My well is 100 feet deep. It had about 70 feet of water in it when not in use. It has a maximum sustained production rate of 4 GPM.

                        2. My purpose. I will be using this well for all of my household needs as well as irrigation for a garden. To keep it simple, I want to build a system that can pump 4 GPM continually 24 hours a day. I plan on using a 50 gallon pressure tank at 60 PSI pressure.

                        I have been looking around at pumps and found the SunPumps SDS-Q-135. It looks like it will produce the volume I would need for my 100 foot deep well, but I can't find any statistics for it when it comes to using it in a pressure system.

                        Could someone help me design a system to fit my needs? Thanks.
                        Originally posted by jungleexplorer
                        Not that I am questioning the advice I am getting here, but where is the expense at that equals 25 to 30 thousands. I mean the pump I am looking at runs $830 and I can get Kyocera KD185GX-LPU 185 Watt panels for $300 from Northern Arizona Wind and Sun. I don't know about batteries, but I just don't see where you get to $30,000.00 to run a pump. I would expect 30,000.00 to be what I would spend to run my whole house, not just one little 12 volt water pump. Where is the hidden cost here?
                        the statement in red above. The battery bank required to run that would be huge. Remember in winter you only get maybe 3 sun hours a day.
                        Now lets say that pump draws 10A at 24V
                        Thats 240 WH per hour or 5760 Watt hours per day
                        In order to have enough battery to sustain 2 days of no sun without discharging more than 40% would require a battery capacity of 28,800 Watt hours.
                        so you would need a battery bank of 1200 AH @24V or 600 AH at 48 volts. This would be 12 200AH batteries at 12v ea
                        Now you need to be able to recharge those batteries in one day after the 2 days of rain to prevent damage to the batteries.
                        So in two days you used 11,520 WH of power. With an MPPT controller the losses and calculation are as follows
                        WH *1.5 / sun hours
                        So with 3 hours of sun worst case
                        11,520 x1.5 / 3 = 5.67KW of PV round that up to 6kw.
                        Run the numbers yourself with real numbers based on the actual pump. It may not be 30K but it is substantially more expensive than running electric with a standard 240V AC pump
                        NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                        [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                        [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                        [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

                        Comment

                        • Mike90250
                          Moderator
                          • May 2009
                          • 16020

                          #13
                          You asked for a HUGE amounbt of power. If you belive you will only have the pump running 2 hours total, out of a 24 hour day, that would be a much smaller system.

                          You will need a Pure Sine Wave inverter, or plan on both: a) replacing the pump early. b) adding another 20% to your power budget.

                          The 1/2 hp franklin motor I have, consumes from the inverter, 1,000 watts. Theory says it should consume 400watts. The difference is in losses that simple caculations don't show. (power factor, motor efficiency....)

                          We don't know what your water consumption plan is, I pump for up to 6 hours in the summer, for irrigation. Winter is only expected to be about 10-20 minutes a day.
                          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                          Comment

                          • Sunking
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Feb 2010
                            • 23301

                            #14
                            Originally posted by jungleexplorer
                            Not that I am questioning the advice I am getting here, but where is the expense at that equals 25 to 30 thousands. I mean the pump I am looking at runs $830 and I can get Kyocera KD185GX-LPU 185 Watt panels for $300 from Northern Arizona Wind and Sun. I don't know about batteries, but I just don't see where you get to $30,000.00 to run a pump. I would expect 30,000.00 to be what I would spend to run my whole house, not just one little 12 volt water pump. Where is the hidden cost here?
                            Ya but how much are 20 of those panels, and a 2000 pound battery?

                            What you are not getting is you want a huge amount of power. It is going to cost you anywhere from $3000 to $5000 for each Kwh you want per day. Of that 3 to 5K is $1000 for batteries that need replace every 3 to 5 years. So if you need 10 Kwh per day you are looking at $30 to $50K depending on your location. You will also need a generator.
                            MSEE, PE

                            Comment

                            • jungleexplorer
                              Junior Member
                              • Apr 2012
                              • 19

                              #15
                              Okay now I get it. I did not make my self clear in my first post. I am not talking about running the pump 24/7 365 days a year. I live in central west Texas with no trees and have about 330 sunny days a year. Since the pump will be hooked to a 50 gallon pressure tank, it will never run 24/7. It will run to pressurize the tank and turn off until the pressure drops to the turn on point. Some days will be heavier then others with almost no water usage at night and no irrigation usage in the winter. When I said I wanted system that could pump 4 GPM 24/7, I just meant I want a system that has the capacity to do this if on a very rare occasion I needed to do this for a day.

                              So let's say, that I needed a lot of water one day during the summer. Assuming I have enough PV panels to run the pump (see pump specs below) and charge the batteries at the same time, the only question is how much battery storage I would need to run the pump for a single night (40% discharge).


                              The pump I am talking about is the Sun Pump SDS-Q-135. Here are the specs on it copied from the spec data sheet (http://www.dcpower-systems.com/uploa...ts/22762_2.pdf).

                              22762_1.jpg

                              The specifications at full voltage (30V) are as follows:
                              Maximum Flow Maximum Head Maximum Power
                              Model GPM lpm Feet meters Motor Watts
                              SDS-Q-135 5.0 19 100 30 184

                              Voltage rating is 12

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