washing machine off solar?

[russ]

In Europe, they put higher tax on gasoline than on diesel fuel, and no tax on biodiesel, to promote the use of diesel power for transportation. Wrong really - refineries in europe are set up to preferentially produce more diesel and the market has developed that way over time - right now diesel is 7.50$ to 8.00 per gallon in Europe. In Turkey diesel is about 9.00$ per gallon. The diesel cars are substantially more expensive.

This has worked, for the most part, as roughly 50% of Europe's auto fleet is diesel - with the correspondingly higher fuel efficiency that goes with diesel power. The smog controls and limits are different

Here in the US it is different. The government does not really want high fuel efficiency because they make a lot of money off highway fuel and federal excise tax on fuels.The EU countries make far, far, far. far. far more - the argument is bogus. So the US has excessively high federal excise tax on diesel fuel and states have higher road tax on diesel fuel than on gasoline which gives them a bigger slush fund for the Christmas Party. Really sounds like a nice OWS fleabagger argument. As pointed out before - EU prices are in the 9$ per gallon range.

The only work you have to do is hold meetings with your buddies to figure out how to spend all your money - and you get paid a six figure income to do this. That's government. Sounds like your biggest complaint is that you were left out?
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Chris

Comments in bold in the text.

[ChrisOlson]

Wrong really - refineries in europe are set up to preferentially produce more diesel and the market has developed that way over time - right now diesel is 7.50$ to 8.00 per gallon in Europe. In Turkey diesel is about 9.00$ per gallon. The diesel cars are substantially more expensive.

This still gets back to what I said yesterday about Europeans willing to spend more money on energy efficient technology. Diesels are more expensive here too because they're more expensive to manufacture. But Europeans will buy them - most US buyers won't.

The relative expense for fuel is related to other factors. I did not say that fuel was cheaper in the EU. What I said was that the taxation scheme is the exact opposite of the US - and the result is the higher adoption of diesel power in Europe for personal transportation.

Sounds like your biggest complaint is that you were left out?

No. Actually my biggest complaint is that I'm forced to fund it. And my bigger complaint yet is that there seems to be no way to force the government to spend it responsibly.
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Chris

[russ]

. Diesels are more expensive here too because they're more expensive to manufacture. But Europeans will buy them - most US buyers won't. When I bought a new car two years back it was with a petrol engine - it would take too long to break even to bother with. Petrol is more expensive in Turkey as in Europe.

What I said was that the taxation scheme is the exact opposite of the US - and the result is the higher adoption of diesel power in Europe for personal transportation. Typically US taxes will be lower in all areas

No. Actually my biggest complaint is that I'm forced to fund it. And my bigger complaint yet is that there seems to be no way to force the government to spend it responsibly. Can't disagree there including the wasteful subsidies on solar, wind, methanol, bio fuels etc. No problem with the government doing and supporting research however leave the picking of winners to the market.
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Chris

Comments within the text.

[ChrisOlson]

Comments within the text.When I bought a new car two years back it was with a petrol engine - it would take too long to break even to bother with. Petrol is more expensive in Turkey as in Europe.

There has been several small diesel cars and pickups sold in the US over the years. And every one has been a failure in the marketplace. The only ones that have been successful is GM, Chrysler and Ford's 3/4 and one-ton diesel pickups. People see the higher price of diesel fuel vs gasoline and they won't buy one unless they're using one of the above mentioned trucks for heavy hauling. Even though the economics of the diesel might turn out to be better (higher resale, lower fuel consumption and cost per mile, longer life), people still won't buy it simply because it costs $8 bucks more to fill 'er up and the diesel costs more to buy.

Typically US taxes will be lower in all areas

Of course. But it's relative. Energy in the US is cheap. Energy in Europe is easily double the price. This is what I said before, and is the main reason Europeans will be quick to adopt energy efficient technology, while Americans don't care. The relative price difference between gasoline (petrol) and diesel fuel will drive the automotive market. Gasoline is cheaper than diesel fuel in the US - guess which fuel is the most common for personal transportation? Diesel fuel is cheaper in the EU than petrol - guess which fuel is the most common for personal transportation? And that's also why you European folks have a much greater selection of diesel powered vehicles to choose from than we do. And your fleet average fuel economy is much higher than ours.

The US government has figured out that they charge higher taxes on the fuel that powers the economy because it's going to be burned anyway as long as the industrialized world is running - so they got a guaranteed income source to fund the nonsense. They can make gasoline cheaper than diesel fuel, and make it up on volume. When the price of gas goes down, people burn more of it and the government gets more money because the excise taxes on it are fixed per gallon. It's in the government's interest to keep the price of gas low, and have people burn lots of it, because they get more money for the Big Christmas Party.

If you convert a diesel to run on vegetable oil or B100 here in the US, and drive it on the road - you face a $10,000 fine because you are using a non-taxed fuel. In our state there are 8 different Federal and State permits and licenses you have to obtain to legally use B100 fuel in an on-road vehicle - and every permit and license insures that the government tracks every gallon you produce so they can get their money from it. In my wife's home country of Sweden you can convert a diesel to run on bio or veg oil - no questions asked.
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Chris

[russ]

There has been several small diesel cars and pickups sold in the US over the years. Actually EPA restrictions have more to do with what diesels are available in the US.



Energy in the US is cheap. Energy in Europe is easily double the price. This is what I said before, and is the main reason Europeans will be quick to adopt energy efficient technology, while Americans don't care. The relative price difference between gasoline (petrol) and diesel fuel will drive the automotive market. Gasoline is cheaper than diesel fuel in the US - guess which fuel is the most common for personal transportation? Diesel fuel is cheaper in the EU than petrol - guess which fuel is the most common for personal transportation? And that's also why you European folks have a much greater selection of diesel powered vehicles to choose from than we do. Again you simplify and manage to distort life. As I noted above EPA restrictions have more to do with what diesels are available in the US than anything else.

Many of the mini cars sold in Europe are fine to put around town but for example cheap offerings from FIAT are real junk right off the showroom floor.

The US government has figured out that they charge higher taxes on the fuel that powers the economy because it's going to be burned anyway as long as the industrialized world is running - so they got a guaranteed income source to fund the nonsense. The double and triple price for fuel in other countries is all tax.

They can make gasoline cheaper than diesel fuel, and make it up on volume. When the price of gas goes down, people burn more of it and the government gets more money because the excise taxes on it are fixed per gallon. It's in the government's interest to keep the price of gas low, and have people burn lots of it, because they get more money for the Big Christmas Party. OWS fleabagger BS and not much more.

If you convert a diesel to run on vegetable oil or B100 here in the US, and drive it on the road - you face a $10,000 fine because you are using a non-taxed fuel. In our state there are 8 different Federal and State permits and licenses you have to obtain to legally use B100 fuel in an on-road vehicle - and every permit and license insures that the government tracks every gallon you produce so they can get their money from it. In my wife's home country of Sweden you can convert a diesel to run on bio or veg oil - no questions asked. Using waste vegetable oil is one of the silly points of the green movement. OK for one individual but useless overall. Easy solution for the whining is not to drive. In general there are more restrictions on individual actions on the EU side of the pond - maybe converting a car is an exception.
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Chris

You say you are a farmer? How about the gross farm subsidies that people have milked for many years now?

[ChrisOlson]

You say you are a farmer? How about the gross farm subsidies that people have milked for many years now?

What gross subsidies? The only subsidies I'm aware of are USDA "programs" that are designed so the government can control planted acres and food prices by manipulating the commodity markets. They have never worked, and nobody I know participates in them. We call it "farmin' the government" and anybody in their right mind knows that the less you have to do with the government the better your life is.

We bought up 1,920 acres here, about half it wooded. And we run some beef cattle but there is not a single dime of it "subsidized" by anybody but us.

Your statement that diesels are not common in the US because of EPA is demonstrably false. The Euro 4 -6 and Stage standards are more stringent, or are in line with, EPA and Tier standards here. The problem in the US is CARB, not EPA.
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Chris

[Sunking]

Your statement that diesels are not common in the US because of EPA is demonstrably false.

BS Chris. The Employment Prevention Agency (EPA , for those in WI) has done every thing they can do to BLOCK diesel vehicle sales in the USA sales with ever increasing restrictions. WAKE UP DUDE.

I mean who in their right mind would want something like a Honda Accord with all the Bells & Whistles that gets 50 to 60 mpg?

Certainly not Chris from WI.

[ChrisOlson]

BS Chris. The Employment Prevention Agency (EPA , for those in WI) has done every thing they can do to BLOCK diesel vehicle sales in the USA sales with ever increasing restrictions. WAKE UP DUDE.

I guess you can think what you want. I only spent 19 years as a ME working in the diesel power business in North America, Europe and Asia. So it stands to reason that I wouldn't know anything about any of it.
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Chris

[Sunking]

I guess you can think what you want. I only spent 19 years as a ME working in the diesel power business in North America, Europe and Asia. So it stands to reason that I wouldn't know anything about any of it.
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Chris

Hogwash Chris. EPA does everything they can to keep diesel cars out of USA. You know it is fact.

[ChrisOlson]

Hogwash Chris. EPA does everything they can to keep diesel cars out of USA. You know it is fact.

Oh, for pete's sake. No - EPA does not do everything they can do to keep diesel cars out of the US. Drive down the road on any day and tell me how many medium and heavy duty trucks you see on the road? Guess what powers those trucks? If those trucks all stop rolling, guess what happens?

The specs for Tier IV Interim and EU Stage IIIB were published clear back in 2004. That gave engine manufacturers 8 years to comply. Almost all of them were in compliance by 2011 both in the EU and US. The EPA does not one day say, "Oh, we can't have any of those diesel cars running around - let's a pass a new rule today."

The problem with diesel power in automobiles in the US is related to:
1.) Diesel fuel has a higher federal excise tax and it is more expensive than gasoline
2.) Only about 50% of filling stations in the US even handle diesel fuel
3.) Diesel powered light passenger vehicles are more expensive than a comparable gasoline fueled vehicle
4.) US auto dealers find it hard to sell them

The off-road and heavy equipment industries adopted diesel power years and years ago because the Otto Cycle thermal efficiency is pathetic compared to the Diesel Cycle. It has nothing to do with EPA not wanting diesels. And if you think it does, take a good look at the Tier III 10ppm sulfur standards on gasoline starting in 2017. That rule is going to cost operators of gasoline fueled equipment approximately $20 billion per year industry wide.
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Chris

[Mike90250]

The problem with diesel power in automobiles in the US is related to:
1.) Diesel fuel has a higher federal excise tax and it is more expensive than gasoline
2.) Only about 50% of filling stations in the US even handle diesel fuel
3.) Diesel powered light passenger vehicles are more expensive than a comparable gasoline fueled vehicle
4.) US auto dealers find it hard to sell them

And don't forget California - CARB (Calif Air Resources Board) the ones who killed the electric car, by caving into Detroit's big 3. Diesel in Calif - in cars, fat chance. They smell bad, and might give some bureaucrat in the peoples republic of santa monica, a headache.

[russ]

I guess you can think what you want. I only spent 19 years as a ME working in the diesel power business in North America, Europe and Asia. So it stands to reason that I wouldn't know anything about any of it.
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Chris

Chris - You talk a lot and apparently know a little! What you did for 19 whole years I don't now but the title engineer can mean anything from zero to a lot. Some of the best engineers in history didn't have any formal degree.

The rules are very different for allowable truck emissions and passenger vehicle emissions. Europe has higher allowances for soot for one thing. The same vehicle on the roads in Europe is not allowed in the US due to EPA rules.

[ChrisOlson]

And don't forget California - CARB (Calif Air Resources Board) the ones who killed the electric car, by caving into Detroit's big 3. Diesel in Calif - in cars, fat chance. They smell bad, and might give some bureaucrat in the peoples republic of santa monica, a headache.

Mike, I believe I mentioned that earlier. The CARB requirements are going prevent heavy trucks that currently meet Tier III (pre-2007) from even entering the state. And it is illegal to idle a diesel engine in a truck equipped with a sleeper in California for longer than five minutes. Even diesel-fired APU's are now illegal in California unless the exhaust is routed thru the DPF on the truck.

CARB is a nightmare. And the problem with it is that California is one of the largest vehicle markets in the world. So few manufacturers are going to build an engine or vehicle that is EPA certified for 49 states but excludes California. A few do and the specs for those engines specifically state it is not legal for sale in California.

Aside from all the regulations in California, my personal opinion is that California is not a sustainable system anyway. They don't even have enough water for people in southern California. So I think one of two things will happen - there will be a lot of people leave the state (which is already happening to a certain extent), or it will eventually collapse under its own weight.
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Chris

[Sunking]

Chris you have no idea what you are talking about. Emission standards are different for passenger vehicles and trucks. Emission standards for passenger vehicles are very strict, and get stricter each model year in the USA, and very few if any auto manufacture can keep up. Many have tried and have given up. Honda is a great example as they were to release the Accord in 2006. However EPA lowered emissions, so Honda delayed a model year to redesign. Guess what EPA lowered the emission to block it.

Trucks are completely different, They are allowed much higher emissions than passenger vehicles. That is why you see so many diesel puck up trucks on the road. It is a known fact the EPA is keeping diesel passenger vehicles out of the USA with ever changing emission standards. Couple that with whacky states like CA and WI, and not many manufactures are willing to make a 50 state passenger diesel vehicle. It is not worth their time or money to do so.

[ChrisOlson]

Chris - You talk a lot and apparently know a little! What you did for 19 whole years I don't now but the title engineer can mean anything from zero to a lot. Some of the best engineers in history didn't have any formal degree.

Russ, while I will not waste your time outlining all of my credentials, I spent 19 years as a mechanical engineer at Cummins. 4 years in the automotive division on the B-series engines. 15 years on KTA and QSK G-Drive engines for standby and prime power generators. When my wife and I became tired of moving between two continents we made the decision to adopt a different, slower-paced lifestyle with no schedules, nobody to answer to and finish raising our two daughters in a real home with mom and dad there every day. I grew up in this area and it is much like my wife's home country - mostly settled by Scandinavians in the mid to late 1800's with logging and the forestry industry, and commercial fishing on the Great Lakes, still being a large part of the economy here (along with low grade iron ore - taconnite - mining in more recent years).

I had assumed when I came here that the forum was about trading information, not about who carries the biggest stick. We also enjoy our off-grid lifestyle here, despite it maybe not being "practical" based on most people's situation. We probably have more dollars than we have sense, but it is what we chose to do. And I applied many of the concepts that I learned over the years working with prime generators powering remote areas (mostly in mining) to our system so we don't have to give up any of the conveniences that most people have.

If you feel my experience with some of these things is irrelevant, then I will no longer post to the forum. While I do enjoy trading information with other off-grid folks, I do not enjoy getting into an argument over who carries the biggest stick. Nor do I enjoy pushing a point with someone who is obviously pretty much uninformed on a topic (such as what batteries are used for propulsion engine starting in mid-sized yachts). So at this point I digress - you are now returned to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Chris